The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rising Problem with Harry Germany's Rye Bread

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Rising Problem with Harry Germany's Rye Bread

 I have made the following Rye Bread recipe and this is my third try.  However I have trouble with the rising of the dough when I put it in my loaf pan.  It rises but flows over the pan as if it does not have enough strength in the dough.

Now I know with rye that I am not dealing with gluten as much as starch.  And that I should keep the dough wet and sticky and not load it up with flour. 

I am following the ingredients exactly. I have a scale and am doing everything pretty precisely.  Why doesn't the dough rise up versus overflow the plan.

The recipe I followed is listed below: 

Rye Bread of Harry Germany’s with notations by Country Boy 

80/20 with buttermilk ============== hydration 100%

Ingredients: Please note that conversion to cups is by Country Boy

  • 815 g or 3.545 cups of buttermilk…1 quart minus 1 cup…scalded
  • 650 g or 2.827 cups of King Arthur fine milled white rye flour (German type 1150)
  • 165 g or 0.718 cups of King Arthur Sir Lancelot Bread flour (German type 550)Bread flower.
  • 20 g or 4.215 teaspoons of salt…
  • 1 pouch (7g) 0.492 Tablespoons of dry yeast or …1.475 teaspoons?
  • * Mix all ingredients, knead for 7 minutes by machine, let dough rest for 20 minutes.
  • * Don’t over knead and fold dough, just 2-3 minutes by hand. Give dough a rough form.
  • * Let dough rest for 10 minutes.
  • * Shape dough & put in loaf pan.
  • * Let it rest until volume has minimum doubled (ca. 120 minutes).
  • It should double in volume before baking. Put loaf on baking sheet with baking paper, wet loaf surface with wet hands.
  • * Start baking with 480°F for 20 minutes. * Finish baking in 60 more minutes with 375°F, otherwise Doughy. Note here that the time and the rising are critical. Don’t over do the rising w/rye. …………………………………………
  • Note: type 550 wheat flour => white bread flour type 1150 rye flour => "medium" rye flour (though I use whole-meal rye successfully. Just make sure that it's milled fine)

Major Note: There is only One folding. I confirmed this with Harry about 10 days ago.

 

demegrad's picture
demegrad

I've been very interested in heavily 'ryed' bread lately  as well.  I have been working with Hamelman's 70% rye.  Not hugely successful, but I really enjoy the rye, truth be told, I'm not sure what I'm even looking for or for that matter what is ideal.  As long as I enjoy what I make as I get there I'm happy though.  So I can't really answer your question, but I have one for you, I follow Hamelman's instruction very closely and also use a scale, one of my faults could be the lack of proper types of rye flours, but I do the best I can.  At 70/30 rye to bread flour, my bread does 'double', but has little if any oven spring, does this happen to you or do you know if this is normal?

demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

Ramona's picture
Ramona

CountryBoy, I made this very same bread today and was thinking of you as I did it.  I wanted to wait until it cooled enough to cut and see what the crumb was like first.  I started this last night and let it rise once and folded it over in the bowl and then put it into the refrigerator.  It dawned on me that I could probably shape the rye better in the cold state.  I have never been successful with ryes and yet these type of breads are what I have really wanted to make.  I use dry yeast though.  I know that using a starter would make things easier on me.  But after Harry posted his recipe, I had hope.  And what is more amazing is that I really didn't have much confidence in it working, so I really did approach it very casually last night.  I just threw it together basically and this morning I even came close to just giving up, but I made myself continue and shaped it and put it on a sheet pan, with a bowl over it.  I have never been able to make a free standing bread work yet, but this one did!  It rose after it warmed up and I baked it, still expecting to see it flop or something to ruin it, but it worked. I deliberately let it be a little underproof to be safe.  I am not a dramatic individual, but I really could have cried with glee over this!  But for me, the key was shaping it while it was cold.  I came across a potato bread recipe recently that suits my taste ( I like it to have a sweeter taste) and I did the same thing, of shaping it while it was cold and it turned out really well.  For Harry's recipe, I freshly ground my own rye kernals and some hard, red,spring wheat.  I did use cold milk with some apple cider vinegar, but not as much as Harry does.  I used about 2 1/2 cups of milk.  3 tsp. dry yeast and 2 1/2 tsp. salt.  I added about 4 cups of rye flour and 2 1/2 cups wheat flour.  I don't measure exact, so I am estimating.  I got a great crumb and flavor.  The boule shape held great also.  I did add a couple of tablespoons of caraway seeds.  I bake mine at 480 degrees for 20 minutes and then at 350 for an hour.  I wish I could put the pictures of it on here, but I am not that computer savvy.  My children think I am making a big deal out of this, but they don't realize how far I have gotten today.  Try doing this overnight, like I did, I bet you get good results. 

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Precision is a tough concept. I am sure you measured your flour exactly. But you didn't have a German 1150 rye flour. In Germany there are very strict standards for flours. I the US, there are not. Using a whole rye changes the absorbtion (it will absorb more water than an 1150 or medium rye) and the dough strength (the dough will be weaker).  So, your numbers were precise.  But what you put in the mixing bowl still wasn't quite what Harry probably intended.

In discussions with German bakers who have been to the USA, they envy American bakers their wheat flours, German wheat flour is not as strong. But they are happy to not use American rye flours. In America rye is used more to make whiskey than to make bread, and the weather is not as favorable for the production of good bread grade rye.

Did Harry post any pictures of his loaf? Did it have a "nice" domed top that extened over the top of a bread pan? Not having seen his original message I don't know that.

With weak doughs, a bread pan serves much the same function as a girdle is supposed to. It tries to hold things in place that don't want to be held in place, adds form to things that are formless and helps make something more attractive than it otherwise might be. 

If the bread overflows the pan and slides down the sides, I think you over filled the pan. Next time fill it so the pan is a bit less than 1/2 full. Then when it doubles, it will be a nice size. You may want to look for a taller bread pan for this project. I find when people overcrowd a bread pan they tend to bake too soon, to the detriment of the bread. I talk about that a bit in http://www.sourdoughhome.com/bakingbalance.html

All this talk about the lamentable unavailability of medium rye flour has me re-examining my bohemian rye recipe at http://www.sourdoughhome.com/bohemianrye.html I want to re-do it so it uses whole rye flour but has it's characterstic taste intact. My first bake was VERY encouraging. I need to up the caraway a bit, but the rise was good and the free form loaves looked very nice. I think a big part of that was because ALL the rye flour came into the bread through the sourdough starter. It's about 60% whole rye and 40% bread flour. I think I'm going to have to rename it to be New Bohemian bread, or maybe Edie's bread.

I'll probably do about 4 more loaves and then post the recipe at sourdoughhome.com.

 

Mike

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Mike, once again you have articulated very well a complex subject in a manner easily understood by many. Over time you have consistently added to the understanding of myself and many other new Artisan bakers. I know you maintain a teaching web site of your own and spend a lot of time helping those of us who need a little hand holding. Thanks for taking the time!

Eric

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

First, thanks for the kind words Eric.

In a little bit it's off to the store to get some all-purpose flour for my Croissant project and some more rye for the New Bohemian Bread.

 

And therein lies the comeuppance.  The last four loaves were not fully successful

The starter wasn't as llvely, the bread didn't rise as well, and the taste, while good, wasn't addictive.

 

What happened?

The first time, I followed my usual procedure of taking a little bit of starter out of the fridge and feeding it up over 3 days to be the amount I needed. Even though it had been fed on nothing but whole rye flour for those 3 days, it was light, it was bubbly and it had an aroma that was indescribable. It just whispered rye and sourdough in the most delightful, and seductive way.

 

The next, and larger, batch was 4 loaves. And I wanted to make the bead the next day, and the starter had been really quick to revive, so I took some starter out of the fridge, mixed it with the final amount of rye flour and water, covered it, and put it into the oven with oven light on overnight. In the morning, it hadn't risen much, so I let it keep working until mid-day. By mid-day it had risen, but not as much as the previous starter, and the aroma, while nice, wasn't delightful. It didn't transport me.  The starter had pretty clearly risen as far as it was going to, so it was time to feed it or use it.

 

The final loaves had lost about 1/3 of their rise compared to the previous batch. The crumb was more closed. The bread was not bad. In fact, it was good, and if I hadn't had the previous batch, I would have been delighted with it. But, I had had the previous batch. So, I need to stabilize the recipe so it will work, and get me the rise I need. I think two more batches..... maybe the end of next week.

 

To more closely define the comeuppance.  I can not count how many times I have told people that, "haste is the enemy of good bread, you can't rush good bread!"  I tried and paid the price.  Also, pride goeth beore a fall and it just doesn't pay to think you have a recipe nailed too soon.

On the other hand, the day did have a high spot - while having lunch at a local steak house, one of the employees came up and told me that, with tears in his eyes, he'd pulled the last loaf of my Garlic Head Bread out of his freezer at home. And now, since I wasn't selling bread, he was going to have to start baking again. It's nice to have one's efforts appreciated.

 

Mike

 

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

ehanner asked me in an email if I could share the recipe for the Garlic Head Bread I alluded to above. I got the recipe from someone else, and I'm not sure they would approve. So, instead of a recipe or a formula, I'll give you a starting point for a project. And at the end of the project, you'll have something to call your own.

First, a warning. Garlic Head Bread is very extreme. People either love or hate it. Some just say, "No thanks, I don't like garlic" and never try it. Others say, "I like garlic but not THAT much!" And then there are the people who lined up at the booth at the farmers market each week looking for Garlic Head or Pepper Belly. Two guys bought a loaf once and were back 15 minutes later. "Do you have another loaf? We bought it for dinner, we're havin' some chicks over, and we thought we'd try the bread, and the next thing we knew it was all gone!"

The garlic is whole cloves. I suggest you buy them prepeeled if you can. Peeling that many cloves is a hassle and will leave your hands smelling funky for days. Toss 'em in a bit of olive oil and crushed black pepper and roast the cloves at 375 for 20 minutes or so. Half way through, use a spatula to toss 'em over on your baking pan. You want some more done than others. Some on the edge of burnt, some merely cooked.

 

It's a lean white bread, straight dough method (though you're welcome to change that), around 60% hydration with normal amounts of salt and yeast.

 

Around 40% by bakers percentage is the roasted garlic mix. That weight is AFTER roasting. And another 15 to 20% is cubed sharp or extra sharp cheddar cheese.

 

I develop this with stretch and fold and put the garlic and cheddar in at the initial mix.

 

Let me know what you do with this, if anything.

Mike

 

PS Pepper belly? Oh, yeah, dice fresh jalapeno peppers, toss with olive oil and crushed black pepper, roast in the oven like the garlic. Somwhere around 20%, depending on how much heat you like. You want the peppers fairly dry, if they are wet, they will serve as focal points for crumb rot and mold. Mike

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Now that sounds delicious Mike. 40% Garlic, boy that's gotta be earthy. On the cheddar do you like it better with extra sharp? I'm thinking maybe a little french thyme or rosemary might blend well also. One thing at a time!

Thanks Mike for the concept.
Eric

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Both sharp and extra sharp are nice. In the bread, I like the extra sharp better.

 

However, the inevitable cheese that breaks free and melts on the sheet pan tastes better when it is sharp - the extra sharp just gets too bitter. I manage to eat a fair number of the cloves of garlic that break free and of the puddles of cheese that ooze out of the the bread. Be careful with the garlic though.... you will smell like garlic after a few dozen cloves... and those you sleep with might object to it. My wife has unkind words for me. My dog doesn't seem to mind. But my dog has her own smell issues...

 

Mike

 

umbreadman's picture
umbreadman

Mike, that sounds incredible, and I think I will most definately have to try that. It's indescribably enthralling....I've made roasted garlic levains before, but for some unfortunate reason, the thought of hugely increasing the amount of garlic never struck me....

Thank you for posting those descriptions Mike, and thank you Eric for asking!

Cyrus 

mkelly27's picture
mkelly27

I usually roast my garlic by the bulb quantity, and use Asiago cheese. I use the BBA Ciabatta recipe incorporating the mashed garlic cloves and the cheese sliced with a vegetable peeler during the stretch and folds.  In fact I just pulled 3 loaves of this very bread from the oven.  I bake it every weekend.

People beg for this bread.

_______________________________________________________

Two wrongs don't make a right. Three lefts make a right

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Good idea Mkelly27. roasting the whole bulbs makes it a lot easier to squeeze the meat out after. No need to clean each clove that I can see. I usually cut the top off exposing the tops of the cloves and place the head in a foil pouch with a little oil drizzled over the exposed ends.

I bought a large amount of garlic and a couple bricks of extra sharp cheddar today in anticipation of trying this soon.

Can't wait!
Eric

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Part of the charm of the version of garlic head that I mentioned is that there are whole, firm, cloves of garlic in the bread.  I don't bake the cloves long enough for them to get very soft.

 

When I have baked heads of garlic, they get to a point where the garlic is a paste.  That would really change the bread from what I am making.  Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.

 

I looked around and found a 3 lb jar of peeled garlic at Sam's Club.  You can see it at http://tinyurl.com/2rcpe5  Costco also has it.  And grocery stores may carry a similar, through smaller, product from Melissa's.

Anyway, if you bake the heads, please let me know how it turns out.

 

Mike

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

As I was popping the cloves out of the head with a small spoon, I wondered if they would be softer than what you had talked about. They were not browned but well cooked so I poured the oil from the foil pack over the cloves and broiled them to caramelize one side. That firmed them up a little but they are still soft. I have been taking pictures of the process and will bake the bread tonight and post the results on a new thread.

I feel like I hi Jacked this thread when I should of started another, my apologies to the Harry Germany rising thread!!

Eric

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Yes, I would agree with your assessment re the hijacking, however, I don't sense there was maliceaforethought.  You are correct nonetheless.

Novices like Ramona and myself and others need a place where we can congregate and not get in the way of you folks who are obviously heavy weights compared to ourselves.

Possibly with time Floyd will consider it.

have a good day........

 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Mike re your ?:

Did Harry post any pictures of his loaf? Did it have a "nice" domed top that extened over the top of a bread pan? Not having seen his original message I don't know that.

Yes there is a pic in his original post for this recipe and yes the crust, crumb, and dome are quite beautifu.  I did a search to find it but couldn't......

Re only filling half the pan; I tried that and it did not come out right.  In fact it rose very little or not at all.  Have no reason why...

Ramona.....Congratulations on doing it and pulling it off.  I am glad to hear someone is pulling this off.  Problem is the virtue of this recipe was its simplicity. Adding the fridge component to it just adds complexity.

I would have thought that with the special flours I used that it would work.  Maybe I have to move on to the King Arthur's First Clear instead of the fine milled KA I currently use.

 

 

Ramona's picture
Ramona

You are right, there was a picture of Harry's bread, but I have also tried several times and was unable to find it.  I liked putting the dough in the refrigerator overnight, because I like to soak my doughs and I figured it would give me a chance to make this work.  You are further along in baking bread than me, I can tell and so I really didn't have much confidence in myself to make this otherwise. 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

....I just wrote a long response and it was lost.....

Correction we are really both beginners.  I will follow your baking instructions some of which are not in the Original..This week when I bake it will be 15 mins at 490 and then tent it with tin foil; then 350 for 60 mins.  Remember do not bake on the bottom shelf with rye or it will burn.

demegrad, rye does not pop like wheat.  With rye you proof it 80-90% and then put it in the oven...Bake first at the high temp and then lowering.  The rye takes time to bake.

 

Ramona's picture
Ramona

I thought you might want to know that I didn't tent it with any foil and it did not burn.  It really did turn out really well.  I think you will be surprised.  Actually, the way I did it, made it so easy for me.  I just started it the night before and finished the next morning and it really didn't take much from me.  I want to try it again this week, after I get more caraway seeds, and see if I can get the same result.   I can tell that you really are striving to be so good at baking bread and I do think that a year from now, you will be so surprised at how far you have gotten.  When it comes to cooking and baking, it is a true passion for some and I think you have it in your blood.  

Ramona's picture
Ramona

I just wanted to let you know that I pulled the dough out of the refrigerator and let it sit at room temp. for about and 1 hour and then I shaped it and let it warm up more.  It was still pretty cold after I shaped it though. 

JERSK's picture
JERSK

    I posted this a while ago. It's some info I found on theartisan.net regarding types of rye flour and their effects on loaf rising. This is for American rye.

Light rye: 75% extraction, can be used in quantities up to 40% without significant loss in volume.Ash content .55-.65%

Medium rye: 87% extraction can be used up to 30% without significant volume loss. Ash content .65-1.00%

Dark rye:100% extraction. Can be used up to 20% without volume loss. No ash content given.

Rye meals: Fine/medium/coarse/pumpernickel and flaked. Consists of a variety of broken or cracked rye grains after being classified in a series of sieves.

I'm assuming this last category goes from finest to coarsest. Of course finding this range of rye products is next to impossible unless you grind your own. So I think when making high percentage rye loafs, you just can't expect a lot of rising. Also with sourdough rye breads, you just do one rise in the pan. These clasifications are just a loose guideline for American rye flours as I don't believe there are any industry standards. For better rising you might want to add some vital wheat gluten, or if mixing with a wheat flour, use a high gluten type. This should give a bit more rise and structure. Longer baking at lower temps seem to be the norm with high pctg. rye breads.