No Loft/No Oven Spring
Well, no oven spring to speak of. I usually let my dough ferment over night in the refrigerator after my 4 turn and folds. I never seem to get the rise that I see in the videos and I have never gotten a gluten window even when I double the time under the dough hook. I get almost no rise when I proof.
My kitchen is usually cold (65*F) so I rise and proof in the oven with the light on.
I also have been having my proofed dough collapse when I slit it or turn it out of the proofing basket, no matter how gentle I am. Everything is turning out like ciabatta.
I suspect that my yeast may not be up to snuff. I buy my active dry yeast in bulk from Costco. I am working out of a fresh batch, less than a month old. It is kept in the freezer in bulk and transferred to a sealed container in small amounts and kept in the fridge until I bake. I have been doing an experiment today. I have 1/2 teaspoon of yeast sitting in 1/2 cup of 105*F water for 25 minutes now with little signs of life. How much action should I see in this time period? I will grab some packets of instant dry yeast today and compare them next time I bake.
Any help would be appreciated,
Jason
I'd be very surprised if a bulk package of yeast from Costco was 'dead'. That's really unusual. However, it is worth a try to make your recipe with yeast from a different source.
What formula / recipe are you using? Can you provide a bit more information about it?
Try adding a little sugar to that water, yeast is alive and needs nourishment.
Gerhard
I bought a bulk package of ADY from Costco that I have kept in my freezer for more than seven years and it still works for me. Everything you've said about keeping your yeast seems to be in order so consider changing your procedures one step at a time to track down where you're missing out.
My first suggestion for you is to change the temperature of the proofing water from 105F. I use 80-85F and it works just fine. Yes, I know that isn't the suggested temperature and it does seem to be a bit slower than what I first expected but the point is that it works for me so I have no reason to change. I bake at home and not for an income so I don't fret. Of course, doing so also requires feeling and "listening" to the dough rather than following the recipe schedule. It takes a bit of experience to know when your dough has finished its bulk fermentation or final proofing but you can do it, I did. You might also consider using a container with markings to show you when your bulk fermentation dough has doubled in size when the recipe calls for that.
Second, you have to be fundamentally sound in your shaping technique. Like getting to Carnegie Hall, it takes practice, practice, practice. During that time, there are a lot of Youtube clips that show the different ways to shape your batards and boules. Try them out and see what suits your efforts. When your finished bread looks less than perfect, you can always call it "rustic" and try again.
Finally, you'll find that having a good bread baking book is an immense help. I have Hamelman's "Bread" and after seven years of reading and re-reading I continue to learn from it. I also like Berenbaum's "Bread Bible". There's a whole forum here on TFL that discusses books and opinions are varied. If you have access to a good library system, you can borrow those books first before you purchase them. Just remember that most of us found we couldn't be happy with buying only one. There are worse problems than that.
My yeast experiment never produced any bubbling in 30 minutes. I added some table sugar and that made no difference. I have what appears to be dormant yeast on the bottom of the measuring cup. I will try again with instant yeast from a packet later today.
Any ideas why I appear to be having a problem with gluten development?
I am using unbleached bread flour that I give a 15-20 minute autolyse before I add the salt. I then kneed in the Kitchen Aid for up to twice the suggested time to little or no improvement. I measure everything to the gram and an using several different recipes. One with a poolish and scrap dough. The flavor development seems good, just little loft and a collapse between proofing and the oven.
The common denominator could be the water.
Sounds like dead yeast. I prefer instant yeast to active dry if you are going to buy more.
I had the same problem with Costco yeast a few years ago. For decades I bought 1 or 2 lb packs of Red Star dry yeast, and it always krauzened nicely when fed sugar (sucrose). Then, one day a few years back it stopped doing so. It still rose dough, however.
I never went so far as trying a different sugar in the hydration water like malt or fructose or glucose. Before I changed retail suppliers, I contacted the company back when it happened, asked if they had changed the strain or something, and they were super cagey, not really wishing to discuss the topic, stating it was a matter of secrecy. They emphasized the fact it still rose bread. If I recall correctly, at the time Red Star may have recently sold to a competitor.
I found a different brand in the same size bulk package at a different store, and it krauzened nicely on sugar. It is labeled Fermipan. I bought a bunch, several years of supply, and haven't bought any recently, however. Nor have I bought Red Star yeast since then, nor do I intend to. Shrug.
I doubt the water is the problem. Nice clean wonderful tasting well water. I will report back after I get some of the individual yeast packets.
FWIW my high hydration ciabatta comes out pretty well, if a bit fragile before going into the oven. My no knead rye also seems fine.
Typically well water is higher in mineral content and often chlorine. I'd be trying the formula with a different source of water.
Well water never has chlorine. City water has chlorine added. Mineral content is low. The water is fine.
What flour are you using?
What is your percentage of hydration?
I am using a commercial unbleached bread flour from ADM, IIRC, in 50 lb bags. What ever Costco and Cash & Carry sell. I threw the empty bag away when the flour went into food grade plastic tubs. I have not had trouble with this flour before, but who knows?
FWIW all of my doughs seem wetter than in the videos and I weigh everything to the gram. Even my Gros Pan from Jacques Pepin needs an extra 1/2 to 3/4 cup of flour to get a workable dough.
If your dough collapses however careful your sure when scoring this is a sure sign of overproofing.
However I agree with Lazy Loafer. Not much to go on without a recipe.
Maybe it is the temperature of the water, I know instructions say 110˚F but when I use to use that type of yeast I would just run the tap till it felt like it was body temperature and I never had an issue. Yeast, warm water and sugar you should see bubbling within 10 minutes.
Gerhard
I agree it sounds like overproofing, and it's hard to tell without a recipe.
Also, I never get or go for a windowpane, but my bread is fantastic.
Scrap Dough
1/4 tsp yeast in 1/2 cup of warm water.
115 grams unbleached flour
1/4 + 1/8 tsp salt
Mix salt, flour, and 1/3 cup yeasted water, knead for 5 minutes
Wrap in plastic and refrigerate at least overnight.
Poolish
1 Tbs yeasted water
2/3 cup luke warm water
1 cup flour
Mix in a bowl, cover with plastic and let ferment overnight.
Dough
340 g unbleached flour
180 g water
1/4 tsp yeast
Poolish
Scrap dough
Mix water into poolish
Mix yeast, poolish, and flour in bowl of Kitchen Aid mixer.
Mix w/dough hook for 1 minute and give 15-20 minute autolyse.
Add scrap dough and salt
Knead for 10 minutes with dough hook.
Bulk ferment for 3 hours or til it has doubled in bulk, while turning and folding at 20 minute intervals
Shape and proof - Bake at 500*F
On another note I bought some fresh packets of ADY from a high volume mega-mart and retried getting the yeast to bloom is warm water with a little sugar. It was only a tiny bit better.
I am wondering if I am getting some kind of residue on my dishes from the dishwasher that is inhibiting growth. I will try the same test somewhere else tomorrow. Everything else is the same except the dishwasher detergent. All of my other bread has acted normal, just what I have been baking in the last few months.
I do not think I am over proofing but I may be over bulk fermenting. I will try to pay more attention to the bulk fermentation time this weekend and see how it goes.
That makes me think of over proofing.
This is a method I haven't used before and the first time I've heard of a scrap dough. It sounds like a pate fermentee. If it is then you've got a pate fermentee, a poolish and on top of that yeast in the main dough.
Then you have a tbsp of yeasted water in your poolish but doesn't say how much yeast.
If I was doing a preferment I'd either do a pate fermentee or a poolish but not both. Then a pinch of yeast in the main dough.
First line of the recipe... 1/4 tsp yeast in 1/2 cup of warm water. Then 1/3 is used for the scrap dough and a Tablespoon of that dissolved yeast is used in the Poolish. I'm trying to add up the pre-fermented dough and see how that compares with the recipe but my brain stopped working... the perils of jet lag. :(
Interesting that it uses two pre-ferments with the same yeast. Maybe it's a "use one or the other" type of recipe or perhaps a partial translation with metric and cups it's kinda strange.
It works out to 1/32 of a tsp according to the book.
FWIW the recipe is straight out of "Artisan Baking Across America" by Maggie Glezer.
According to Wiki: pate fermentee/scrap dough/old dough are all the same thing.
This recipe yields particularly flavorful bread, which is why I like it.
1/4 tsp of yeast in 1/2 cup of water. 1 Tbs of that equals 1/32 of a tsp of yeast.
The reason why I say over fermenting rather than over proofing is that I only get an anemic rise when proofing. Perhaps the yeast is spent by the time I get to proofing.
Pate Fermentee and Old Dough is the same thing but first time I've heard it called Scrap Dough
Which recipe from the book?
Acme's Rustic Baguettes
The recipe calls for both pre-ferments. I have seen other recipes that use more than one. I can't say what it does to the dough/bread. Here is an earlier post about the recipe and results:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5180/acme-baguettes-glezer039s-artisan-baking
When I say overproofing I mean over fermenting. So it is a result of both bulk proof and final proof, as proofing dough is the same as fermenting in my book.
If you look back, you will see that proofing the yeast yielded no activity. That is the main purpose of proofing the yeast. To prove that it is viable and active. Maybe you got a bad batch of yeast. Maybe the freezer killed the yeast. Or the other possibility is that your water was too hot and that killed the yeast. 105 degrees F should be fine, but did you use a reliable thermometer? Did you feel the water with your finger/wrist?
This recipe is all over the place. Half in volume and half in weight. The volume to weight conversions are all off. 1 cup water is 236g and flour is so variable that this recipe contradicts itself.
236g water as 1 cup is pretty much standard and I don't think this recipe even sticks to that.
It appears that it is some kind of residue from the dishwasher. I did another batch of yeast with everything else just that same except that I used a measuring cup that had not been through the dishwasher. Same packet of yeast, same water temp, same measuring cup; lots of activity.
FWIW I was using Costco house brand dishwasher packets.
Now to bake some bread!
I gotta clean the arms on my dishwasher, Could be the rinse isn't rinsing well. While I was gone the dishwasher almost dried out. I poured a pitcher of water in it to soften the drain pipes and the lower filter overnite. Took everything out that I could and brushed it clean under water. Amazing how that builds up with time. I did the screen filter but forgot the arms.
:) Mini