The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

looking for the right SD deli rye

jimt's picture
jimt

looking for the right SD deli rye

Greetings folks!

I've been working on finding a nice deli rye that I enjoy and have tried a couple of recipes. I did Hamelmans Light Rye bread (from Bread) and Reinhart's Onion Rye (from BBA). Next bake I plan on trying Sour Rye Bread by Greenstein but thought I'd ask if people had other recipes they liked? 

I'll wind up remaking the Hamelman but adding some rye to the loaf (he only included the rye starter). If I do, I am guessing that I should up the hydration a bit? Also, he calls for high gluten flour and I used KA bread flour which seems to fit this description? 

Reinhart's bread is pretty good and I'd made it once before but without yeast, I followed the recipe this time but think I prefer the slower method.

Greenstein calls for clear flour and while I realize that it is available online, I can't see myself paying for shipping a couple of pounds of flour only to find that I like it and want to purchase more:-) I'm curious if there would be an approximation I could get by combining/sifting other flours?

I believe these may have all been overproofed by a bit. They were all ready to bake and my stone would only accommodate one loaf at the time (maybe 2 but I was chicken to try). Believe I will cut back considerably on the yeast next go round.

Anyway, I didn't score the first and had a small blow out on the lower side (loaf on left below), the loaf on the right was baked second and I docked it a few times (with a thermometer), so I scored the last one to see any difference and the crust seems to have held tighter to the crumb. The docked loaf wound up with some areas that felt slightly deflated, my guess would be that while I docked it that I didn't do enough? Onion on the inside, light ryes outside.

Light rye...

 Onion rye, crumb looks strange...the first time I made it the crumb was similar to the above...

Thanks!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

jimt,

I've made the "Greenstein" Jewish Deli Rye by way of David Snyder's posts of same.  I generally stick to "low-end" flours from the local supermarket, so I also had no inclination to spend the milk money on a shipment of First Clear.  But I found a way around the first clear flour issue by using Vital Wheat Gluten and calculating the amount needed to bump up the overall protein percentage using a Pearson's Square.  This tool is primarily used for calculating protein content in mixed grains for animal feed, but works for "human animal" mixed grains just the same ;-) .  Here is the the way that I did it:

The general protein percentages for bread flour and vital wheat gluten can be calculated from the nutrition label on the bag or box - at least on USA labels.  You can find a number of flour proteins from this list of USA based flours as well: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/362249#comment-362249

The result was just what I thought it should be: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/42903/greensteinsnyder-gang-returns-alfansos-kitchen .

Here is David's post with the formula that he used: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32681/jewish-sour-rye

From the majority of post and pictures that I've seen, this type of bread is "asking" for a horizontal score rather than what one would normally do for scoring dough.

good luck, alan

jimt's picture
jimt

Wow, extremely helpful Alan, thanks! I'm a bit slow on the uptake but think I've got it. Online I found 15.3% as the percentage of protein for first clear and for this I calculated that based on my bread flour @ 12.7 and my VWG @ 65 that I need 95% bread flour and 5 vwg. Then I figured I'd check at King Arthur and they show their fc as 16.7% (5g protein of 30g serving) which led me to believe that could be just rounding for label purposes so I'm going to try for the 95% and see what that yields. The link to Davids thread is most helpful as well because I was hating having to calculate all the weights in the Greenstein book (the reason I don't use it more often).

I have to say that your loaves have convinced me of that type of scoring...they look beautiful. I'm wondering a bit about the glaze...I used egg wash on the last batch and may split the next between the pre/post water wash and a corn starch glaze. Wonder if you've had any revelations in this regard since your thread? 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I've only used the corn starch glaze following the instructions that David has.  If you are a fan of sprinkling some type of seed on top of the loaf, the glaze is really great.  Aside from the shine that the bread takes on, you can easily adhere the seeds.  I prefer caraway with rye,both inside and out.  So, apply the glaze, sprinkle on the seeds and then apply a little more glaze to get the seeds pasted to the surface.

Although this hybrid rye bread isn't a pure deli rye and certainly not by shape, here is a closeup of what you can do with the glaze and seeding on top:

 

jimt's picture
jimt

your baguettes never fail to impress...when I get some more confidence with 'regular' shaping I'll make an attempt. I meant to roll the last loaves in caraway but was running low, this seems like a much better/easier approach. Thanks!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

like,  It comes with 30-40% rye flour that can be whole grain rye, whole rye or medium rye of various grinds from meal to fine.  The wheat part can be 60-70% whole grain wheat, whole wheat, bread flour or AP.  Some DR have a low hydration around 65% and others with more whole grains much higher.

My personal favorite is 40% whole grain rye, medium grind (half sprouted) with 60% bread flour, with bread spices (Caraway, coriander, fennel and anise dry pan fried, coarsely ground) and rehydrated dried minced onion at about 76-78% hydration with 2% salt using the ectra onion rehydratio liquid as part of the dough liquid.  I like it in a loaf tin or a batard

Most DR is 30% rye but I like mine with more rye in it  At 30% rye you can go with 72- 74% water.  This one I like as a batard.

Happy rye baking

jimt's picture
jimt

That's a most valid point. My best rye bread from memory tasted a bit stronger (well maybe just different) than either of the loaves I've made but my memory is not so great and it's been some time since I've had what I consider really good rye bread (I guess I don't get around all that much). I'm using a pretty finely ground dark rye flour from the local health food store. The Greenstein recipe is 44% rye (72% h2o) and I believe that should be close to my liking. I like the idea of adding bread spices (in addition to caraway) once I find the right dough mix...I had never used them before doing a 100% rye and found them to add a whole other quality to the bread. I would guess/assume that the clear flour may have played a role in the ryes of my memory due to the fact that they were all from bakeries in the northeast. I currently live in the southern US and the options are still not so great locally.

Thanks for the tip about the dehydrated onion...I am guessing that the variance in fresh onion is too great to find any consistency in a recipe like this. I'll try that on my next go round with the Greenstein recipe. Do you have a preference on a glaze?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

of the oven but some put one one before it goes in and one one when it comes out to make it really shiny.  I rarely use one though unless I am baking a loaf for a special occasion or to give away to someone,  A nice dusting of corn meal in the bottom of the form or applied to the wet top is nice.  Corn bread is pretty famous in the NE USA too.

jimt's picture
jimt

Thanks, interesting thought on the cornmeal, believe it may be interesting to try a full covering with cornmeal just to see the results. That's funny, I didn't even realize that people ate cornbread in the north until reading Greensteins book.

I really want to figure out the glaze...not so much to use it all the time but at least to understand the effects on the crust with the different techniques. I really just want to find what I like best for those special loaves. I'm also interested in trying the water wipe while it's still hot, something makes me think there may be something to this.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

brush in water or milk when it comes out of the oven to soften the crust if a bit over baked.  Yankees love cornbread too....  just not the sweet southern kind so much.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Rye Bread, New York Deli Style Caraway Rye Source:Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day, additions & modifications by Stu Borken Description: Classic New York Jewish deli style caraway rye bread ------------------------------------------------------------ 3 Cups lukewarm water-105 degrees non-chlorinated spring water be exact 710 grams

1 1/2 tbsp dry granulated yeast, I use instant and I get mine from King Arthur but any one will work.

2 tbsp Kosher salt, 26 grams, I use Morton’s because size of the crystals is uniform not the pickling salt, be certain it is the non-iodinized Morton Kosher salt
2 tbsp caraway seeds + more for sprinkling on top at time of baking

1 Cup medium rye flour or dark rye stone ground 131 grams
5 1/2 Cup unbleached all-Purpose flour, I generally use scoop and level, 183 grams
1/4 Cup dried onion flakes not granules,

16 grams cornmeal for pizza peel, yellow or white or just parchment paper

cornstarch wash and pastry brush, boil up 1/2 tsp cornstarch with 1/2 cup water. I use a ramekin and place it into the micro until it boils up.
Oven stone also known as a pizza stone upon which to bake the bread
Pizza peel Instructions:
TO MAKE THE DOUGH:
In the 5 quart bowl of a Kitchen Aid Pro, stand mixer, mix the flours, the yeast, salt, caraway seed and onion flakes. Stu uses the whisk attachment, held by it's knob, or just using a wire whisk, blend these dry ingredients. Then install the paddle attachment and start mixing at setting #2, and pour in the 110-degrees water. Mix well until ALL the dry ingredients are wet and then only 30 seconds longer. Remove the dough to an almost airtight container (I went to Target and bought a plastic rectangular tub with a top, a 6 quart Sterilite brand tub) and allow to rise for about 2 hours or until the dough comes up to near the top of the rising container. When the dough has risen this amount, place the container into the refrigerator for 3 days. This long cold fermentation is what develops the sour.

PREPARE YOUR BAKING OVEN:
Place a pizza stone on the rack at the middle and one rack just below it with a 8" X 8" metal cake pan with 1 inch of water.

PREPARE YOUR RISING OVEN:
Warm an oven to about 110-degrees and spray it with water.

TO SHAPE THE DOUGH INTO A LOAF:
Preheat your baking oven to 450-degrees with the stone in place and the water filled cake pan below it. Give your stone about 45 minutes to pre-heat. Dust a segment of the dough (1/3rd) you plan on extracting or dust a bread board with flour. Using a pastry scraper, cut that segment apart from the remainder of the dough, remove the dough from the rising box. Have your floured board ready. Scoop the dough out onto the board floured side down. The wet sticky side is up, now quickly, working with your hands shape it into a rectangle, the long way going left to right. Fold the right end over to the left side about 2/3 of the way and then fold the left end toward the right and pat this down. With your hands, pat and mold the dough into a rectangle and cover with damp cloth. Allow to rest 5 minutes. Using a rolling pin, roll out the dough into an 8 X 10 inch rectangle, about 1/4 inch thick. Then start rolling from one of the long edges about 1 inch at a time and squeeze the seam down with your finger tips. Keep doing this until you have rolled up the entire length of dough. When done, use the heel of your hand to seal the final bottom seam. Tuck the ends under and pinch to keep the ends in place. Place the loaf, seam side down, onto a corn meal sprinkled pizza peel or just a parchment paper on a pizza peel. Place into the warm moist rising oven and spray the oven with water, a lot. When risen well, which will take about 90 minutes, remove from the oven and let the surface dry for about 20-30 minutes, then I slash it with a lame’ or snip it with a kitchen shears. Deeper cuts toward the center across the bread and more shallow towards the ends. I then paint it with the cooked corn starch slurry and then sprinkle on caraway seeds. This recipe makes 3 loaves for sandwiches. If I want to make appetizer size loaves I divide the dough into 4 segments.

TO BAKE THE BREAD:
Shake the loaf off the peel onto your hot stone in the 450-degree oven. Spray the oven heavily with water. At 15 minutes,remove the cake pan with the water. Bake the loaf for a total of 35-40 minutes. The bread should have had a nice oven rise and developed a nice color. Remove to a cooling rack, tap the bottom and it should sound hollow. If it needs more time in the oven replace it onto the stone for an additional 5-8 minutes. Remove to the cooling rack. Do not slice until cooled.
This recipe comes from Artisan Bread In Five Minutes A Day with modifications by me, Stu B.

Background: This dough is very wet and can only be worked after it has set up and cooled. It ferments as it rests, it becomes somewhat of a sourdough. It also becomes easier to handle and shape when it’s cold. It makes three good sized loaves which look for all the world like they came off a shelf from a New York Jewish style deli. I have also made the breads in baguette pans for appetizer loaves to use for serving with chopped liver and chopped herring salad. Yields: 3 sandwich loaves.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken
jimt's picture
jimt

That has to be one of the most interesting looking loaf shapes I've seen. I'm amazed that it is capable of holding it's shape during the proof and can only guess that it's due to rolling out the dough with a pin and then rolling it from there. The crumb looks beautiful.

I must say that this will be a technique I try mainly because it is so much different than other preferments I've used and it would be nice to have a recipe available for sometime when I don't happen to have a rye SD culture.

One question on the recipe, it mentions 183 g beside the A/P, I'm assuming this is the weight of the onion below and the A/P is whatever 5-1/2 cups weighs? 

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

The dry onion flakes are 1/4 cup of flakes.  The flour is 5 1/2 cups, yes.

I have had my son who is an IT person at a major international corporation try to upload my bread photos and he could not figure it out.  I could e-mail you the pictures of my breads.  I'm stubeee@aol.com.  The bread you see in the photo was a photo I took years ago when I knew how to put the photos in a file which would upload to TFL.  The bread you see was made with the technique I discribed but was shaped in a baguette pan.  I use this shape for appetizer spreads...shopped liver pate' or chopped pickled herring salad.  My son flipped the picture of the bread, the sandwich loaf, upside down.....damn.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken