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unsuccessful first attempt

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

unsuccessful first attempt

Hi all!

Today, Stella was doing great and I decided to try baking my first soughdough. She is 7 days old.

Well, it did not get to even being shaped. It did not hold the shape. As you see in the picture - it did have bubbles, but did not hold the shape at all. This pictire was taken right before the president-shaken stage. I used 100% hydration all WW starter to produce the levain, as suggested in the recipe, 40g starter, 40g bread flour, 40g WW flour and 80g water.

i have to say, I made a change to the original recipe based on the other recipe of the same person - using a higher hydration ratio for the final bread dough - 86% instead of 77%. I did want to choose the higher ration, because it seems to affect the temixture and opened crumb, and adds maidtire to the interior of the bread as well as thinner crust. However in the oroginal recipe, rye flour was not used. I dis not think the fliur would no cause problem for this high ratio. But maybe I was wrong.

So perhaps this or other reason: my starter did not rise the bread properly, or the stretch and fold was overdone (too many sets or too many times). Is it possible that my starter Stella has bubbles primarily caused by lactobacilius rather than yeast and that's why I see bubbles but when was added to the bread dough, it did not rise the bread?

the recipe for the dough had bread flour as the main flour part and also WW flour and smaller part of rye flour. 

please help, I would like to make correction and attempt it again tomorrow.

 

thank you so much!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

What's the smell like? This is also an indicator. 

See how it does with what you've just fed it. Wrap and elastic band around the harvest the level of the starter now. Tonight take another photo side on and we'll see how much it has risen above the band. Difficult to explain how to add a photo in the body of a post so just change the one here. 

Day 4 it's quite normal for it to go quiet. Don't worry. Now you wait.

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

The fausty odour went away after day 4 or 5 and then a day later it was growing like a weed. 

Jamie

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

This sounds very encouraging to me! thank you for sharing your experience with me! I'll be posting my update later tonight.

your bread is a real beauty! congratulation!

 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

I am so happy to let you know, Stella is definetly asake! As I was stirring he starter occasionally, throughout the day, I've noticed a nice network of bubbles inside the starter, and later this afternoon, I saw the starter started to puff up, and assumed, it will start raising. And it did! I see bubbles on the sides and it keeps coming up. So I believe with this activity, I should do a full feeding as scheduled 1:1:1 ratio of 50g each. Thank you so much for guiding and encouraging me!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You are 5 hours behind me so around about 7.20pm. Feed Stella just before you go to bed 1:1:1. See what happens come morning. 

Sounds as if your starter is over the 'dead' phase. Should this be a sign of Stella getting her groove back then she should pick up strength from here on. 

Some things to look out for. Well the main thing is smell. Should your starter begin to smell acrylic do not panic! It will mean it just needs greater feeds. But we'll cross that bridge IF we come to it. For now go back to your feeding schedule. 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Stella is most definetly awake! It just doubled. From around 5 pm till 8pm, I smells nice yeasty I would say, not cheesy as before...the smell you mentioned is not present, hopefully, i won't let her starve lol.

 

and i hope from here on it will be getting or stronger and stronger...I updated the picture so yo can see how it looks right now...ill keep you posted tomorrow morning! Thank you!

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

thank you so much! Yes, I have been keeping the rubber band before too, I will update the image  tonight.

the smell is actually very pleasant, mild sour smell, but not a bad smell. Before, wih the luconistic acticity, it was rather much sharper. It seems to be just slow developing but overall healthy...

Ru007's picture
Ru007

doing what its supposed to be doing. 

Just give it some time. Mine also went quiet for a day or two after the bad bacteria phase. 

It'll probably pick up on day 5 or 6. 

Good luck. 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Awesome! Thank you so muc!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

reasons - the bad wee beasties are running amuck.  As the pH falls the bad wee beasties die off and the culture will look pretty dead for day 4-5.  But don't worry the good wee beasties are starting to take over slowly.  Day 6-7 the good wee beasties that like a lower pH start to really build strength and the culture becomes much more active..  Day 8-10 the culture should be able to raise a loaf of bread.

Yours is in the dead phase.  Just wait for it to come around so don't feed it which will just raise the pH unnecessarily.  Just stir it every 6 hours or so.  When it picks up steam then feed it.

All is well.

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

thank you for the advise! I really approximate it, because from the research I've made so far, it did not make it clear that it might take that many days for the culture to become viable. So I was thinking before,  what did do so wrong? Lol

thank  you again!

AZBlueVeg's picture
AZBlueVeg

I've found the 1:2:2 or 1:1:1 recommendations for refreshing a brand new starter to be WAY OFF and actually delay the development of your starter. When you are just starting out, you have very little yeast and your goal is to maximize the yeast development. Following these ratios in the beginning will require a very long time to grow your yeast population.

Instead, use a 2:1:1 ratio. This will bring more yeast into your starter after each refresh and you will see it start to rise much faster this way. I was 7 days into a starter that showed very little activity using the traditional rations, but the day after I used 2:1:1 the starter bubbled like crazy. Ever since, it doubles every 2-4 hours and I can get it to rise multiple times in 12 hours.

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

thank you for this information. It's great to hear from somebody to share a real experience,  rather than an instruction that is evidently very generic.

i am planning to stir it from time to time and possibly even skip the tonight feeding if don't see much activity there, and then will check in the morning, to feed it if it is more active. From all the answers, one something is definitly in common, it takes many more days than all the instructions suggested. 

 

Thank yiu you so much for the input!

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That is because it varies.  Mostly with temperature.  Temperatures above 75°F will increase the process on the first day and tend to take about a week at about 75to 77°F.  Cooler temps below 75° take longer, in fact two weeks is more common and often 3 weeks.   By 65°F a month is not uncommon.  Most instructions do not specify temperature.   Good instructions do.  

From my experience, you can take your active discard and do a 1,2,3 sourdough loaf and in about 8 to 12 hours have it out of the oven.  That is weigh the amount of discard (1)  double that weight for water (2)  (holding back just a tad when mixing) and triple the starter weight for bread or AP flour (3).  Take the flour weight and find 2% for the salt amount.  Then knead the dough together.  Let it rise in a covered dish at 75°- 85°F.  When it starts puffing up in about 4 hours, do some stretch and folds.  More instruction under:  1 2 3 Flo Sourdough.  

You can also take out the discard now before going to bed and let the culture rest (the quantity is not important as long as you keep at least 20g)  rest overnight without feeding it.  Feed in the morning.  Take that discard now and mix up the 1 2 3 sourdough with warmish water and after 4 hours, tuck it into the refrigerator overnight,  warm up and finish working on the next day when you have a block of time.  You can then watch the freshly fed starter and the dough rise at the same time.  

When feeding  the small amount of overnight starter, do also a 1,2,3  one part starter , two parts water and three parts flour by weight.  This is a critical point in the starter's growth when you don't want to feed too little but have to feed enough flour to stimulate growth.  If you are just eyeballing the starter, to feed, just double the starter volume with water and carefully add enough flour to make a soft paste or dough.  Sort of like toothpaste.  Cover and observe.

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

thank you so much! I will try this recipe! Great use of the discard :-)

About the temperatures - this is indeed a very important factor. And that's what was part of my confusion in the beginning. I live in warm climate and I have 79-80f at home at all times. So I expected the starter to fertment rather quicker. But again, like you said, there are a lot of variables. 

I did see activity came back today in the afternoon. Hopefully, from now on, it will be getting stronger. :-)

 

again thank you so much for sharing your experience with me!  

Sugarowl's picture
Sugarowl

I started one last Monday. It was very active day 2-3 then just went quiet after that. Nothing happened, just a few bubbles nothing more. I thought maybe it needed more time, but I threw it out yesterday after reading about the Pineapple Juice starter on here by Debra Wink. So that's what I'm going to try. If you can't get your starter to work, maybe try another way?

Here is Part 1 where she explains the why: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
and Part 2 where the instructions are: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2

I just found it yesterday and it was a very interesting read if nothing else. So that's what I'll try tomorrow after company has left. :)

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

i just wanted to mention again, that I am very happy with this very small investment in the book by Teresa L Greenway "How to make your own sourdough starter", that has a link to her videos. She actually explains about this first activity of the starter happening due to other micro organisms than yeats and good bacteria. And it's perfectly normal as it turns out to be. The starters were quiet just like yours and mine. And then later on, they picked up the nice pace and showed some beautiful fermentation. 

I definetly suggest getting it, because it showed the method you would like to try! And I would reply on her explanation as she is a very experienced baker. :-)

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

i will see what's happening, I certainly see some more activity today, when I start stirring, I see a network bubbles inside the starter. But yet there is no increase in size. 

I can tell you from the answres and older posts about this early activity: it's a bacteria that we really don't want but happens to take over in the beginning (lucinostoc), this is what gives a very rapid raise to the starter (it happened on the 2nd day, the starter more than doubled in size), after that, it went quiet and showed first sigs of activity yesterday - just a few bubbles; but before - there were no bubbles, nothing...so in development - as it's the 4th day, it's activity seems to be slow, but going.

 

About pineapple solution - I read about it before and saw a couple of videos showing this method: on breadtopia website and by Teresa L Greenway. But from a very interesting video I saw prior to that, I concluded that it is unnecessary. THe link is below...

take a look, it happened to be very helpful.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTf9OulP3U

teresa l greenway (you can get a book on amazon, 1.99$...was showing 3 different starters, one of them was the pineapple solution with WW flour...and it did not show any signs of life till later, so it can potentially give false impression. But before day 11, all 3 of her starters were very well fermented.  

lets keep in touch, let me know if you try, how it's going for you! Best of luck!

Sugarowl's picture
Sugarowl

I'll watch the video tonight. Apparently ph levels only stall the starter, doesn't mean it's dead, oops. I'll try both methods and let you know how it turns out (as long as I can keep both out of reach of my toddler, I'm running out of space!). It's a good excuse to buy some pineapple to grill though! :D

I should've waited one more day like you did, next time I will.

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Ph is certainly a significant factor...I am sure if you try again and give it time, it'll come through...

lol love pinaple in anyshape and for haha...and yes, keep them out of reach of your toddler! My LO is crawling so I am not worried about it...yet...lol

keep in touch and good luck! :-D

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Stella is living up to her name - she is a little star!

After the last feeding after 9 pm, she already doubled itself in  little over 4 hours! It defiantly smells like yeast, and has numerous bubbles of different sizes that I see through the glass. I'll update the picture in the morning. Let's see how much more she can grow :-)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Carry on feeding and if by Monday morning Stella is showing this much strength, bubbling up on cue and smelling good then I think you're ready to bake. Find yourself a simple sourdough recipe to test Stella out. Once you have had a successful bake then Stella will be ready for her home in the fridge. 

Looks good. Really good! 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Awe, thank you! If Stella raises reliably after every feeding, vigorous and bubbly, I'll be baking soon and getting ready for it.

I updated the image, I took this morning. But I checked on her at 3 am and she was even a bit higher, and I did not take a picture. The smell is awesome, just like yeast.

 

When Stella is ready for baking, should I keep her on the counter a while longer? I read that this was she will keep maturing. And then in a couple of week, to put her in the fridge?

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Until your starter has proved itself and makes good bread. After that it depends on how much more time you wish to devote to it. Obviously the more TLC the better but eventually you don't wish to be slave to your starter.

Have you found yourself a nice recipe? 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

yes, I agree,  i think I will let her mature first.

i am working on this, but I want to surprise my husband with our favorite bread, that is focaccia bread; and we both love the sourdoughs. So even though it might be prematireky that I will attempt it, but I want to make sourdough focaccia. I have been researching on the stretch and fold techniques for it, and a variety of recipes. So I am going to get ready soon :-)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

for a couple billion years with no help from us, what's a few days to let it mature!  It won't be full flavored for a month or so anyway.

Happy SD baking 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

i agree, i read, it should improve ur flavor with maturity... I'll keep it for anither 3 weeks or so..

thank yiu! I am already excited to try soon!

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Stella is doing great and I am getting very close to musing it for baking.

as I have everything I need for the focaccia bread, I'll do it first as my first attempt. 

And I also found a sourdough bread recipe, I want to follow. I see the crust and crumb - are exactly how I want them to be. This is something that, if I can accomplish eventually, I would be very happy with. The crumb is opened and soft and as described literally dissolves in the mouth, with subtle sour taste..And the crust is crispy and not to thick. 

The recipe sugessts artisan Bread flour as part of the flour in the final dough. is it important? I do have unbleached unbromated bread flour and organic whole wheat and white flour. What's your advice?

The hydration level is very high, ove 80%, and was specified as an important factor of the end result. the method is described in a great detail; so this will be my second attempt to make.

i will have to get proofing baskets and a baking stone as well. Or there are other methods? I don't have Dutch oven and don't really want to use this method, rather steam method. What say you? :-)

 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

day 5 - Stella is thriving!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

she can raise bread.  Go ahead, it's closest you'll ever get to bungee jumping in your kitchen!  Risk it.

What are your feeds now and what flour are you feeding?

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

i am planning on my first attempt in the next 1-2 days. Thank you so much for the advice! I am so excited about it :-)

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

and that's what I will bake first - sourdough focaccia. I have thr equipment at hand to do that.

For other sourdough bread, I will have to get a baking stone (and use it with steam method), and a couple of proofing baskets. Beside a baking stone or Dutch oven methods, are there any other pans i can use and get good result? thank you very much!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

any of that fancy equipment.  Some things are nice to have but you can get started right away just draping a paper towel or napkin in a sieve or colander and dusting it well with flour.   I once hung a ball of dough from the cupboard knob, swinging like a stork baby.  Opposite corners of a square dish towel tied in simple knots.  :)

A dark cookie sheet or even a brownie pan is good enough or just about anything that will go into the oven and not burn up.   Casseroles, fry pans without handles, I baked on a plate once and also in a mixer bowl.  You can also dust a cookie sheet or pizza pan with flour and plop your counter top risen loaf on it and expect a decent loaf.   For a 70% hydration dough, a breathable proofing shape is nice but I have also just lined a tissue box with baking parchment and held the edges up with clothes pins while I place the dough in right side up.  You would be amazed how many things you already have in your kitchen that can be used.  When risen, carefully pick up the dough using the parchment, trim off excess edges beyond 2", mist and slash and shove the cold baking sheet into the oven.  As the bread bakes, it releases from the parchment nicely.  

Use the sheet upside down if you have a sheet with a rim, it traps heat under the loaf where needed.   Steam is also easy.  just set in a small metal bowl or pan with a couple of cotton wash clothes rolled up and pour a cup or two of boiling water between them.  Put in with the loaf and Remove after the initial spring when you want to rotate the bake and release the steam so the loaf can brown.  

Things I like to do?  I like to sprinkle a white bread with sesame seeds after misting or rubbing with milk (before or after it has risen) then slash.  Slash like trying to lift up a section of skin instead of just cutting a gash.  Can't go wrong, sesame seeds always look impressive.  :)

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

I really did not want to go for getting anything fancy at this point. I am happy to know, I can start without them. thank you for sharing so many good tips with me! This is really great!

I have a lot of cookie sheets with and without rims so that's what I will be using; and of course the parchment paper is already in my draw as I often bake cookies.

i have noticed, you mentioned that you mist milk before slashing, please let me know a bit more about this technique, what dIRS itgive to the bread?

also, if I use a cookie sheet, thrn I will use steam method, as it was described by some bakers: place 3 kitchen towels in the pan on the rack below bread. Would that be the right thing to do?

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Stella is going geeat! Today, the yeast smell is more intense. Is this expected? Or the change means something?

should I change to feeding 1:2:2 at this point?

also as I have to have more starter for baking, should I transfer it to a larger jar and feed it the next time without discarding anything? 

Thank you!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

An established starter everyday but not baking everyday you're going to build up discard until you refrigerate. Save it up to use on other recipes. Or get baking. 

When you bake you will take some off (eventually you won't keep too much starter) and preferment part of the recipe - build the Levan - and use. 

Sounds as if it smells good! 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

i will follow with the sourdough bread first, i think its better because it has most derailed and comprehensive directions and thevtesult is something I would like to achieve. 

I will either start today or tomorrow morning, as the process in this recipe calls for the whole process to last the whole day, ritard it for the night and then bake  he next morning. Now, it's early afternoon  maybe it's better to start tomorrow morning and follow the recipe as described. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"yeast smell is more intense. Is this expected?"        YES , always good when it picks up the second day

The change means you should feed more if the culture peaks under 8 hours.  You will want to head for 12 hour feedings with the starter peaking around 8 hours and then coasting to the 12 hour feeding.  If it takes 12 hours to peak, reduce the amount of flour for a 12 hr feeding, if it peaks under 8 hours, feed more flour so that the culture bubbles and peaks around 8 hrs. regularly.   You can reduce the amount of starter down to 10 or 20g.  

To build for a recipe, skip a discard, weigh the amount of starter and then use your current feeding ratio to increase or build the amount of starter culture.  Save some of it to feed and maintain.

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

thank you so much for such comprehensive explanation! 

for  past 2 days I was feeding her every 12 hours. And it definetly peaked in under 4-6 hours. 

and as I am getting ready for the bake-off lol, I will start building it up. Thank you!

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

as I have been researching to start my first baking, I read some feedbacks of the established bakers on their first bread to be too sour. What is the reason? What makes the bread to become to sour? I actually like the bread to be more mild sour rather than too much. I would like to avoid if possible doing something that causes this to happen.

 

thank you for the input!

joc1954's picture
joc1954

I would suggest you to read these articles to find out what you can do get less sour bread (a very mild one):

http://brodandtaylor.com/make-sourdough-more-sour/
http://brodandtaylor.com/make-sourdough-more-or-less-sour-part-2/

or maybe this one with 11 tips:

http://www.sourdoughlibrary.org/less-sour-sourdough/

Here is also my post about less sour SD down there in the discussion of this topic at TFL:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49272/starters-yeast-water-freshness

Just my two cents!

Happy baking, Joze

 

 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

right after I posted my question, I just went ahead and googled this same question and found these articles you menrioned - they happened to be so helpful and clear! And your post gave me some insight on this too. Thank you!

i am getting ready for my first bake tomorrow morning. so I wanted to avoid extra sourness but do want the flavor to be full and complex. 

My starter Stella picks at about 4-5 hours after feeding and stays there without dropping  almost the next feeding. But I do want to get it right at its peak to not make it too sour by resting without feedingfor too long...so I guess, I will feed late night and then early morning to start the process of livain at 9-10 am...the recipe I picked scheduled the process throughout the whole day till evening and to retard the bread overnight. This will probably give some more sourness. I am planning to use a little rye flour for flavor and color - but evidently it boosts sourness too. And the temprature is also important factor. So between all the factors, I just have to find the balance of what can bring sourness and what not to do to bring this unnecessary extra sourness.

joc1954's picture
joc1954

Your last sentence is the most important one - you have to find the balance between the temperature and available time and how sour your bread should really be. I would just bake according to your available time and pass this process once, evaluate the result and then later on take care for all those tiny details that you think were not done in the best possible  way.

As I mentioned in my post my preference is to use young levain, So if  your starter peeks within 4-5 hours after feeding you can mix your levain with a very cold water what will definitely slow down the process at the beginning until it warms up to the ambient temperature. Think about the temperature as being your ingredient. Or put your levain after mixing in a slightly cooler place where it will take longer to ripen. 

Good luck and don't worry about this for the first time - you will have many opportunities later on to correct this. 

Happy baking, Joze   

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

"Good luck and don't worry about this for the first time - you will have many opportunities later on to correct this". 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

i am ready to start the process tomorrow morning. As the recipe directs me, this will take till 5:30 pm to retard the dough till next morning. So I will start tomorrow 8 am. To use the starter to build the livain, I understand, the starter has to be at its peak for the best result. I have noticed, my starter peaks within 4-5 hours after the feeding and stays without dropping till almost the next feedingAbout 10 hours, then slightly discends. So my question is if I start building livain about 8 am, do I have to feed it 4-5 hours prior to it? Or 8-hour interval would be still ok to not compromise the result?

Thank you 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

When taking starter off to feed after its peaked, if you can't time it to coincide with your Levain build then refrigerate the discard. When ready build your Levain use this discard. Either bring it to room temperature first or use warm water. 

There are so many ways to do this. Don't worry about it. It's usual but you're over thinking this. Just follow the recipe as closely as you can and troubleshoot later. If indeed there's any troubleshooting to be done at all. This is how everybody learns the sourdough process. Don't worry about manipulating the flavour either, as in your earlier post, as you can't aim for something if you have never tried your starter yet. 

Bake! 

GrowingStella's picture
GrowingStella

Yes I guess I am overthinking a bit...haha what gave it away? You are right! 

the first time it is! And I have to just "dive in" and then adjust it with practice baking it again and again...

all in all, I have a good recipe to follow and everuthing I need to bake! 

again, thank you so much for advise and support! You are the best!

 

will keep you posted!