September 25, 2016 - 1:29am
Same dough, 2 loaves, different results
Hello,
I'm having trouble identifying a weird inconsistency with my bread even after lurking around for a few weeks.
I've made a dough, divided it in two, shaped one into a boule and the other into a pan (which i sprayed with oil).
After baking, the boule was nice and airy, open crumb and even had a bit of oven spring, the pan loaf appeared to have risen well but after cutting into it it's crumb was quite dense and heavy.
My first thought was bad shaping, but I shaped both of them very similarly except I kept the pan loaf rectangular, nearly the same tension too.
Would really appreciate any insight anyone could provide.
Cheers!
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:) colour, reflective properties if any, thickness, etc.
Ok uhhh...I picked it up at the 2 dollar store to be honest, it seems to have a shiny dark silver non-stick coating , its quite thin compared to the thick and heavy tins used in bakeries, I think it's meant to be used for cakes, banana loaves and the like from what I can tell. There's no make or model on it as it was quite cheap.
Check the interior temperature of the loaves; the interior should be should be 195+°F. The loaf in the pan may have not gotten as much heat as the boule and thus was not baked through.
Ford
How long did you leave the bread in the loaf pan before removing it?
Thanks Ford I didn't think of that, I'll get a food thermometer and start keeping track of that.
Tom I removed it halfway through the bake, after the steaming phase and left it to bake "naked" .
The pan bread might have formed a crust faster as well. If there wasn't enough steam, then this can stunt the oven spring. Plus the free loaf hitting the hot oven will usually get better oven spring. Also they aren't constricted on the sides, so they can expand in all directions.
Cheers for that Maverick, I already have an idea how I'm going to try and fix it.
Thanks everyone for your valued input!
Can expand more then a pan loaf. And on top of that you'll have different temperature distribution.
So taking into account everyone's suggestions I think I'm getting on track with this.
This was a 85% hydration (went too high by mistake) 20% WW + 80% stone ground AP with instant yeast.
The crumb looks dense but it's quite springy and soft, much better than last time.
I think next time I'll do a lower hydration and replace AP with a higher protein flour, that should help hold things better and give larger holes.
Also does anyone know if Australian/NZ flours are weaker than American ones? I'm NZ based but I assume most retail flours will be imported from Aus.
Some photos of the process and money shot:
what brand of flour are you using? there are several other NZ TFLers as well. I have used Edmonds Higrade flour (supposedly NZ wheat) successfully. I prefer Chantel wholewheat but it is I think Australian.
Leslie
there is no mention of a bulk rise before dividing the dough. Unless you are using a quick rise yeast, I would suggest a bulk rise to almost double the volume of the dough and then knock it back and divide into two loaves.
Leslie, I've been mainly using champions Beta flour (strongest I've been able to find 12% protein):
http://www.providafoods.co.nz/Product/info/GFR66844
And grainlands stone ground whole meal:
http://davis.nz/flours-grains-rice-pasta-yeast/flour-grainlands-stoneground-wholemeal
Mini, I guess I should've elaborated my process.
I usually pre-mix the flour, salt and water and leave overnight in the fridge to develop the gluten a bit, the following morning I leave it on the counter for half an hour to come to room temp then I add instant yeast(I think it IS quick rise but not sure), do some slap and folds for about 10 minutes to incorporate the yeast, let it bulk rise for about 2 hours, folding every half hour, then moving the dough onto the bench, dividing it and pre-shaping, leaving it to bench rest for 30 minutes after which I do final shaping and put in tin and bowl and proof for about 45-60 minutes, and then I bake :)
Now that I think about it I'm probably overproofing the dough or not putting enough yeast, as I use 4 gr of yeast for a 1.7kg dough.
Comments appreciated!
Just checking ....
I do that with my Vienna dough, have it wet all night and then add yeast when I want to. I do add the salt after working in the yeast to then tighten up the gluten bonds. When I want speed, I add 5g instant yeast for every 500g flour (the yeast package suggests 7g for a 45 min bulk rise) Do with it what you will. I'm in the tropics and a teaspoon of yeast is like 3 (7g.)
That stuff squishing out betweeeen the pans? `
With baking parchment, you could have the paper continue up the sides so the dough could rise more up into the space, the top pan then holding up the parchment and letting gas pressure escape without pushing dough out. Sort of looks neat and even, bet you can't repeat and have it squish out so uniformily. :) Great for nibbling.
Maybe try the bigger pan on the bottom?
The dough on the sides is actually a dough seal haha
The two pans are same size but they are very light and don't meet up flush, I had to improvise an air tight seal to hold the steam inside. Was going for a diy dutch oven making a paste out of flour and water and gluing up any holes on the sides.
But I like your parchment idea better, I'll give it a go next bake and post results.
Thanks for the feedback!
thinking it might be wet paper but the second picture looked more like dough. Doubled aluminium stripes would work too and could reuse them if careful. I had wondered how the loaf escaped any evidence.
If your oven is not very large, you can just put the pan into the oven with a cup of boiling water, then remove it after the main "spring." Keep the water up front so it is easy to remove with the loaves at the back. Then give them a quick turn and spread them out after the steam pan is out of there. Gives the oven a good venting at the same time.
I only bake once a week and I'm so eager to try all these methods, I must pace myself :)
Cheers!
Well it came out better than I expected!
This was a 70% hydration, 20% WW recipe.
Pre-mixed flour,salt and water night before, next morning kneaded in the sourdough (I was going for 50g of sourdough per loaf but only ended up having 85g for both) , since it's the first bake with this sourdough and the fact I didn't quite have enough I let it bulk ferment for about 10 hours, after which it seemed to have grown a bit(It gets a bit cold down here).
I shaped it and left it out on the counter overnight to proof for about 14-15 hours (Again, cold).
Baked the boule in a cast iron pan with a stainless steel pot over it (It seemed like a snug fit but I think I should've sealed it with aluminum foil like the pan loaf) and the pan loaf had another pan on top of it just like in the last bake except I sealed it with alu foil on the sides (Thanks Mini!)
I'm assuming that since they did spring up in the oven they weren't under proved, does that mean that I could've let them bulk ferment/proof even longer???
Overall very satisfied, any thoughts would be appreciated!
Cheers!
Nope, I wouldn't have let them ferment longer. Wow what a difference!
I'm just going to sit back and enjoy your pictures for a while... Bet you enjoyed lifting the pan cover off these loaves!
Might want to try cooler final proof or slightly longer bulk rise before shaping with a shorter final proof, but the bread looks great. :)
I'm quite stoked to be honest :))
A month of preparation and such a gratifying moment, all worth it!
well done
I don't think you need to change a thing, really. I'm quite impressed with your improvisation, and it all seems to have turned out lovely. How did they taste?
Thank you! They were a little bit sour, but paired well with a bit of butter hehe.
I'll have to adjust the acidity levels a bit later on.
by "building" the sourdough starter with the water and flour from the same recipe. Just use smaller starter to flour ratios until you have about half the flour incorporated into the pre-fermented flour (starter) then you will have a shorter final rise time. Feed the starter builds just before they peak, while it is still rising but not yet levelled out.
If the resulting loaf is still a bit too sour after baking and tasting, keep the salt mixed into the recipe flour so that as you build the starter or pre-fermented part of the dough, salt is being added and controlling the bacterial growth somewhat.
Mini
Is that called building a levain?
Does that mean that building the starter in this manner will take a few days? (Since I only feed max 3 times a day)
but no it doesn't take so long. Because you are using equal or twice as much flour to feed the growing starter, it goes quickly. It should actually be slightly shorter than the whole process you described using the small amount of starter previously. The feeds should peak quickly in comparison with almost no lag time waiting for the starter or dough to start rising.
This sounds like a gradual fermentation process which will ensure a good rise with little to no guess work. I'll give it a go next week!
Thanks Mini as always!!!