The Fresh Loaf

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Weekday bake and rye question

jimt's picture
jimt

Weekday bake and rye question

In tribute to the weekend bake thread, I figured I'd post my mid-week bake. I've been doing a lot of sourdough lately and wanted to try a few different things...a few successes and a few flails. All is good in the end because the bread is delicious.

I used four different recipes for five loaves of bread...my only double batch (100% rye) was the only one that I seemed to have major issues with...the crumb came out fine but for whatever reason I seem to be having trouble getting a good rise and these were cooked in Dutch ovens...other loaves were cooked on a stone.

Started with altus which I've never made before...this was rye, water, and a touch of honey.

 

some bread spice

it looked a bit less proved than the last bake I did with the same recipe so was hoping for better rise than I got

Loaves looked decent but fell flat in the oven.

I thought the crumb came out pretty nice in spite of this but Mini-Oven's loaves (this is her 100% rye ratio 1/3.5/4.16 recipe) had so much better rise...and I really want to make this recipe into a sandwich loaf--perhaps I'll have to try it in a loaf pan?

Here are the other loaves...

Spelt/honey/oatmeal with spelt starter (first run with this starter so added a tiny (2g) amount of instant yeast:

continued on next post...

jimt's picture
jimt

Buckwheat sourdough using wheat starter refreshed with buckwheat:

 

city loaf girl meets rye--white/wheat sourdough:

City loaf:

Spelt/honey/oatmeal--the crust on this went soft almost as soon as it came out of the oven:

buckwheat:

finally the rye:

I have a couple ideas about how to fix most of the basic errors I came across, but just figured I would ask for input on getting more oomph out of the rye when it hits the oven. This is only my third attempt at doing a straight rye (1st two were last week) so I know I need to go right back at it but tried to use the dough slightly less proved than the first time and wound up with pretty much the same results. I used the Dutch oven for the rye because I usually get a better spring in them than on a stone--though I am becoming more confident baking on a stone than I used to be. Should I try a loaf pan next time? Adjust to even less of a proof? 

One other question is about whether I am degassing the other doughs too much? I especially think my city bread has in the past had a much more open crumb than this. I'm not sure if it is that or perhaps because I have modified the timings to suit my schedule? I believe all of these to have been adequately proved but I sometimes find it difficult to judge...do the crumb of these yield any obvious clues?

I realize that my shaping/slashing leave plenty of room for improvement.

Anything else obvious to you folks would be appreciated. Need all the help I can get:)

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

Although boasting a singular and delicious flavor profile, rye does not have the same capacity for airiness that wheat possesses. Thus, a rye loaf will always turn out more dense than its wheat counterpart. Rye doughs, lacking sufficient gluten, cannot support as well the gas pockets that develop within a dough, and thus those pockets, though numerous, can only achieve a fairly small size, creating a denser crumb. If you, in your experiments, discover a way to make a light and airy 100% rye loaf, well then you will have stumbled across something truly novel. Personally, I find the denseness of 100% rye to be one of its charms. It's a different mouthfeel than the shreddable softness of wheat, it brings a certain vitality to the table.

For the other loaves, it looks like you are degassing sufficiently but unevenly, which could explain why you ended up with a big hole on one of your loaves. For a more open crumb, don't think too much about degassing. When I shape my loaves, I don't degas at all, as I figure that the folds and turns will work out any serious problems. Then again, I'm working with very different flours than yours !

Happy baking !

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, lepainSamidien!

Nicely written. I like the way you described the charm of rye. It truly is a different kind of bread that has to be appreciated for what it is.

Murph

jimt's picture
jimt

Agree with Murph, that lays out perfectly why I love the idea of the straight rye. I do understand that it will never be close crumb wise to other breads and I guess that what I'm looking for is more to hold it's shape as opposed to getting great spring--I believe mine really is having deflation issues.

As to your comment about degassing/shaping, thanks. I think I've been trying to make up for poor shaping by degassing more;-) I've been using two different methods of business letter folds (both from videos at king arthur flour) and I seem to be having difficulty developing consistent surface tension. I guess more practice is in order.

suave's picture
suave

For an honest 100% rye you either need lateral support (read, a pan) which will allow you to get away with almost any amount of water, or you need learn what the hydration the dough will allow you to get away with and still hold shape, and that number may not turn out to be in the "artisanal" range, so to speak.  As to the oven spring, my goal with high percentage ryes is always 100% proof and as little oven spring as possible.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, suave!

Interesting that you mention 100% proof with zero oven spring as that was exactly my experience with my first rye loaf. It was 60% bread flour and 40% rye.

It proofed slowly after an overnight retard. I had to put it in the oven with the light turned on to move things along. I was concerned that I ovenproofed as the dough domed in the pan and threatened to sag. Tapping the bottom of the pan produced a very satisfying hollow but full sound.

I got some oven spring but not nearly what you would expect from a wheat bread. I tried to score the dough but the razor just dragged the 75% hydration dough.

My bread was the most soulful I've ever baked though I've only been baking since June. The crumb was tight but by no means dense. Very soft chew. Moist, it would melt in your mouth with a licorice flavor from the bread spices.

I used a very easy recipe from dabrownman. Perfect for a beginner like me. It slices as thinly as I could want. It will make an amazing cocktail sandwich! Maybe spread with an aioli, thinly sliced prosciutto and Swiss cheese with one leaf of lettuce and/or tomato sliced with a mandolin. I'd hold it together with a frilly cocktail toothpick piercing an olive.

I think a wonderful rye is a celebration.

Murph

jimt's picture
jimt

Thanks Suave, I'm going to try a loaf pan next time and may wind up trying to proof one in a dutch oven as well. As to the hydration, I believe it is a bit lower than many 100% ryes that I've seen...the beauty of this recipe is that the process eliminates so many steps I've seen in other 100% ryes. I believe to get the same quality of crumb as Mini-oven that I may have to experiment with the hydration a bit as her ratio is likely just a bit different than mine due to any difference in flour. Here is a link to her thread if anyone hasn't seen it...the crumb she gets is exactly what I am trying to reproduce...well, I know better but it is my goal:)

Murph, I love a good rye/wheat mix myself...but I'm gonna' try to nail this before I come back to reality.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Even if the rye didn't rise much they all look very tasty. Lots of different breads and flavours. Fit for a feast.

Without the recipe, and method, it's gonna be difficult to give much input. Free standing rye will struggle with height. When I do rye I normally opt for very high hydration and bake in a loaf pan. I see you final proofed in a banneton (something which I wouldn't do with rye due to it's stickiness and the hydration I prefer) but as far as the proofing goes i'd say it looks just about right. I wait till small holes just start to appear (not too many mind you) before baking.

jimt's picture
jimt

Thanks Lechem. Yes, they have all turned out to be quite tasty--not that my tastes are that discerning:-) Lot's to eat and even more to give away (freezer is full). Still have a ways to go on shaping/slashing.

I understand about the banneton--I've not had issues releasing any of the rye loaves so far but that makes sense in that the transfer likely contributed to my issues. I plan on trying the next set of loaves using both a bread pan and a pot (as in Mini-ovens post below) and see how they compare. 

I've been enjoying the rye so much but I really have my mind set on tuna on what my father called dark rye--not so sure that it was 100% rye or not but the taste seems very close to what I remember. The bread I've made tastes perfect in my mind for that, I just need to work out the shaping/structure.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

So true, so true.  

Try using a small to medium sized frying pan for a "free form" shape.  Don't go too large and you will get some height on the loaf.  Remove any burnable handles before baking.   I also like a long narrow tall loaf pan for nice sized slices.   Tiny loaves tend to dry out too much in the oven while baking.    

The main thing to remember is to raise pure rye dough slowly so it can stretch slowly.  The problem "on getting more oomph out of the rye when it hits the oven" is contrary to rye's delicate matrix.  The more "oomph" the greater the chances of tearing and subsequent collapse.  

I've found it better to put the loaf in at a lower temp say around 180°C and raise it to primary temperature of 220°C after the first 15 - 20 min and then come down again to 200°C after uncovering than to blast it with high heat and come down. In a normal sized oven (larger than a mini one) that would mean putting the loaf in the center of the oven while the oven is preheating. 

jimt's picture
jimt

Thanks Mini!

I seemed to have focused solely on the ratio and ingredient manipulation that I managed to completely miss your explanation of how to bake the loaves. I went back and understand what you are saying about using a pot...I'll likely just make one to the size of a small dutch oven and proof it in that...if I understand you are putting the cold pot into the oven at 180 (~350f) and going from there? I'll likely do it as an experiment and do a loaf pan at the same time so it'll likely get the same oven treatment.

Of all the sourdoughs I've been baking, rye is the one that I've been trying hardest to grasp...I look forward to going back and playing with other flours in the mix but I love the idea of first learning how to do a 100% rye.