The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Juvenile starter, born Sunday August 21st

Iptsoe's picture
Iptsoe

Juvenile starter, born Sunday August 21st

Good afternoon all,

I've played around with SD for the last couple of years or so, and once again Igot the itch to start again over the weekend. Where I have followed Rose Levy Beranbaums recipe in the bread bible, however I used white flour rather than whole wheat. 

The progress I have is about a day and a half ahead of the instructions, where today after its feed late last night it doubled and has began to shrink back down, however I appear to have a line of hooch around the base of the jar rather than on the top.

 

ill be doing another feed shortly after discarding half, should this ring of liquid actually be at the base?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

it up so the culture diesn't go though all the food so quickly and the separation doesn't happen

Iptsoe's picture
Iptsoe

I opened it up and gave it a good stir and scooped off the top and it was really really thin, especially considering I've used less liquid compared to my previous goes! So I've added 75g of flour and half the amount of liquid so it looks to have thickened up considerabley in comparison, it's now looking more like my previous two attempts, so I will keep my eye on it he next few days. 

 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Go with 70% all-purpose, 20% whole wheat, and 10% dark rye flour. Mix a batch of that blend ahead of time - say 200g of it so you're not mixing and weighing all the time.

Then, however much starter you're keeping around, say 60g starter, keep it at a one-to-one ratio of water and flour which means 30g water and 30g flour mixture.

What *I* would do is stir up what you have and scoop out 30g of it into a new, smaller jar. To the new jar with the 30g of your old, white starter, add 15g water and 15g of the new 70%/20%/10% flour mixture.

Every 24 hours, throw half your new and improved starter out (keep 30g, right?) and add 15g water and 15g of 70/20/10 flour mixture. Do that for three days: dump half and replace.

After three days, repeat the same dumping and replacing only step it up to 12 hour intervals. You'll start to notice it doubling reliably in 12 hours after another 3-4 days. Now go bake something!

You'll never look back!

Once you have that going, move into No Muss No Fuss starter (use search for dabrownman method) and you won't be babysitting your starter for months at a time. Unless you like doing that sort of thing. :)

Murph

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

for the experts about the feeding method posted above. By feeding the starter 1:.5:.5, aren't you starving the starter and letting the acid load take over which will kill the good beasties in the long run?

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

:)

Hi, Dani3ll3!

The one part starter at 100% will be .5 and .5 water to flour. The feeding will also be .5 to .5 to match.

Going too long between feedings will starve it and all sorts of Bad Things could happen where only Mini Oven can save you! :)

Murph

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

starter fed 15 g each of flour and water left on the counter will need to be fed again in 2-4 hours.  24 hour between feeding would be a very long time.  3 g of starter fed 15 g of flour and water might make it 24 hours and be A OK,

The first feeding I use to build a 3 stage levain from a stored starter, say 10 g worth, would be 10 g each of flour and water then 4 hours later 20 g each and then 4 hours later 40 g each for a total of 70 g of flour fed to 10 g of starter over 12 hours making 150 g of levain total ready to raise a loaf of bread.

Happy baking Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Once your starter is kicking butt and taking names, the experts are right and your starter will need feeding with a vengeance straight out of the Bible. 

The original poster said they were just getting going and struggling at that. A young and weak little thing won't go through the same amount of food that something that's kicking the lid off and going for the dog food to survive will.

I think the concensus is that once your starter can double reliably in 12 hours, you're ready to try your first loaf.

Getting out of AP flour only is key to really starting to see some results when you're just getting going. That rocked my world when I was struggling.

I didn't know the 1:1 ratio trick and didn't know how weak and soupy AP flour was in comparison to something more more meaty like whole grains are. And rye? Fahgetaboutit!

Murph

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

it was fed late last night, had doubled and fallen...and from the picture separated.  I'm guessing that all happened in 12 hours or so..... pretty good for a new starter.  I think it is farther along than the baby stage where things ae slow after the good wee beasties take over the culture.  This starter looks too thin, being starved and needs more food to make it 24 hours between feedings on the counter.

Looks like a complete success and ready to bake bread if a week old at this point.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Taking 30 g of starter and feeding it 15 g each of flour and water doesn't  give it much to eat especially if it has to last 24 or even 12 hours. From what I understand, the waste products which are acidic will build up to a point where it will become harmful. At least that is what I have gleaned from my reading. I am no expert just like you Murph. ;-)

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Everyone is SO cool and SO willing to help and there are so many different perspectives and nobody gets bent out of shape.

Reading TFL is so very much more relaxing than reading the news or wasting time on Facebook and way more rewarding. I'm glad that everyone is here.

Murph

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Seriously, this is one of the best and most helpful Internet communities I have been part of. No one gets their nose bent out of joint because some of us may do things differently. Not all places are as accepting and welcoming! Yay for Floyd and TFL. :-D

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

discard, have your recipe handy.  :)

Oooo I like your hot water kettle!  Chic and exact!  :)  :)

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Interesting thread here.  Sorry I am late to the party.

Suggest your read Debra Wink's posts on the Pineapple Juice Solution, both part 1 and part 2.

Here is the link to Part 1

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1

I think you will begin to understand what you are seeing after you get done reading these.

Iptsoe's picture
Iptsoe

Good morning,

 I have taken a look at my starter this morning and it has a few bubbles on the top, but nothing as spectacular as the day before! there was virtually no growth at all.

In reading through the first few paragraphs in the Pineapple juice solution thread it reads pretty much word for word how mine has started out life! Right down to the sour milk smell which is what I have today I will download the rest today and finish off reading whilst on the train to London.

Also,whilst on my travels today, I'll pick up some Wholemeal and Dark Rye to mix up a batch BXMurphy's recommendation!

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

wee beasties are being replaced by the good ones and is slowly building its strength.  How old is this starter?

Iptsoe's picture
Iptsoe

so its only into its 4th day

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and is entering into the good wee beastie stage that will be slower, less vigorous and acidic.  3-4 more days to go.   Looks like all is well

Iptsoe's picture
Iptsoe

Before I left the house this morning I discarded half then fed 1:1:1 and having just gotten back its gone to soup again, the line of liquid is on the top now rather than the bottom and the sour milk smell has gone. 

could the temperature in my kitchen be the cause It has been really warm this last week and the house does retain heat fairy well

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

out the hooch is one that is starving and need to be fed more flour and thickened up.  It is just eating all the food very fast as is the case with counter fed white starters.  No worries just feed it more flour and start cutting back some of the water  to thicken it up and in a couple of days you will ready to see how it lifts a loaf a bread.

This blowing though the food only get worse with counter fed starters as they mature.  Once you starter is fully mature in anither 3 weeks or so you can start doing other things with it to reduce the discard and maintenance.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

What you're looking for is repeatable, consistent results. You want your starter to behave like a trained puppy. But first, you need a puppy.

So you do your 24 hour feedings on schedule for three days. You'll see it start to rise and fall. On schedule. Maybe it'll rise up and poop out, maybe it won't reach its potential. You don't care. You're playing your game, it's trying to mess with your head. Stick to your game. Same flour, same schedule, same weights. Don't bend, don't yield. Whatever game you decide on, play it consistently and win.

Then you move into day four and do your 12 hour intervals. You're the master. It will comply. Keep doing your twelves. Soon, very soon, you'll see that it behaves just as you expect. You feed, it rises. On schedule.

You may have to move into eight hours intervals. Maybe into fours.... maybe you stick with twelves for a bit longer... but that puppy WILL comply. In time, you will be able to predict EXACTLY when it's at its apex.

"Apex" is typically double in volume. Mark your jar with a rubber band after stirring and feeding and look for twice the height. At that very moment, more or less, you'll scoop some out and bake a loaf.

The key is predicting the apex. That's your goal. That's why you're doing this thing. Feed and rise. Feed and rise... Hey! Double! Score! Bake!

Now you mentioned temperature and that's a "thing." Not a huge thing, not a deal-killer thing, but a thing. Hotter makes that puppy jump up faster. Lower slows it down. But you will be able to predict the behavior and know exactly when to scoop at apex and bake.

At some point, you're going to use the search box for "starter maintenance" because the puppy becomes boring. You'll find refrigeration, higher feeding for long-term storage... all sorts of things. You're not there yet. You just need a puppy and you have to train it to your will.

This exercise will serve you well in baking, as well. Keep it consistent, look for repeatable. Change when necessary for a predictable result. But first, look for predictable before you keep mucking about. 

By the way... use bottled water. :) And stay away from using milk, pineapple juice, beer, voodoo... it'll work (and in many cases work well) but it's not necessary and just makes things more complicated. That makes my head hurt.

Murph

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is happening because of the term "born" giving the impression that is when the yeast finally showed it burpy face.

The flour was added to water on Sunday.  We're all still waiting for the "born part."  It will come soon enough.

Iptsoe's picture
Iptsoe

wrong choice of words! jouvenile starter, conceived Sunday 21st. 

 

I fed fed this morning before leaving for work and again it had blown through the feed by the time I got home at 18:30. I've fed again 1:1:.5  and it's really think, its looking like its going to want more by the time I'm ready to go to bed! 

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Hi Iptsoe,

Don't worry, it hasn't blown through much at all, because it isn't really active yet. Soup is fine. And separation at this point just means it isn't staying mixed. It isn't staying mixed because there is no gas bubbling through to keep it so. The flour particles are sinking to the bottom, leaving just watery liquid at the top. It's not a problem, and I wouldn't call this hooch. If you feed too frequently, it will just take that much longer to turn into a viable starter, especially with white flour which has much less yeast in it.

Give Mother Nature time to do her thing --- sourdough is a test of patience :-)

dw

Before yeast, don't feed too much. After yeast, don't feed too little. You'll know there's yeast when it starts to rise again and smell yeasty like bread dough or beer.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

I want to shout out to David for sharing his 70/20/10 flour mixture for a starter. The easy stirring from the AP, texture and food from the whole wheat, and nutrient boost (and yet more texture) from the rye gave me that satisfying look of all sorts of different-sized bubbles in my now-lively starter.

When I read dabrownman's NMNF starter primer, a whole lot of things came together for me. The most important thing was that you can't kill a starter no matter how hard you try and, yes, you can do other things than worry about a starter.

Finally, everyone and everywhere on TFL writes about a 100% hydration starter to make a levain out of. It's not the only thing, of course, but it's very, very common.

Also, throughout TFL, one will read about timing to fit baking into your schedule. It was from all the generous contributions from so many helpful bakers here that I learned about predictability. I learned that it was so important to perfect a process so you can know what to expect and, MOST importantly, WHEN to expect it.

Yeah, I'm still learning and struggling but TFL helped me connect the dots and I want to make sure that everyone here knows that I appreciate all their time. There's so very little of it to go around that anyone who shares even a second of it should know how grateful I am for their generosity.

Murph

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

there is a rubber ring clamped in the mason jar.  

I would highly suggest removing the rubber sealing ring and use just the glass lid to cover.  Gas build up can break jars if lids are put on too tightly.  If you need to keep out critters, clamp a dry folded paper towel or napkin between the glass.

Iptsoe's picture
Iptsoe

i have actually removed the metal clamp from the jar.

 

I'd like to thank you all for your comments and suggestions, over the last 48 hours I've fed 1:1:.5 to thicken and then 1:1:1 the next time, and on both instances i've had the starter treble in size! It also smells lovely and yeasty and is making me want to make a batch of home brew beer! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sooooooo, bake with it!  :)