The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Adding soaker to rye sourdough

Spotz's picture
Spotz

Adding soaker to rye sourdough

Hi!  I'm a new member but I've been following this site for a while.  Got my start with sourdough baking thanks to the excellent post: Wild Yeast sourdough starter and have been baking sourdough breads for a few months. 

Here's my problem:  I found some rye bread recipes that have worked well for me.  I would like to add cooked chopped rye berries to some of these recipes.  I started with a recipe for schinkenbrot found online but repeated attempts have not yielded a successful result (the texture is much too dense.  I'm looking for a bread that is the same as Dimpflmeier Bakery's schinkenbrot.).  I tried experimenting with adding the cooked, soaked, chopped rye berries to the other rye recipes and ended up with equally unappealing results.  I tried reducing the amount of water in the recipe by the amount of water used in soaking the berries (after they were cooked)--loaf was too dry.  I tried draining the soaker and using the amount of water in the recipe as originally written and it was too wet.  Can anyone help me with this? 

Thanks!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the berries in a rice cooker and letting all the water evaporate when done?  ( Or boil in minimum amount of water, drain well and partially air dry.)   In this semi dry condition, chop up the berries and add to the dough like nuts, either with the flour or fold in while deflating or shaping the dough.  Adding more weight to the crumb would require waiting just a tiny bit more on the rise.  Expect a heavier crumb with a large addition of heavy berries.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

What percentage soaker are you using, how long are you soaking and what's the water temperature?

Stan Ginsberg
theryebaker.com

Spotz's picture
Spotz

150g chopped, boiled rye berries to be soaked in 150g boiling water for 20 minutes.  Instead, I soaked them overnight in the refrigerator.  The rest of the recipe calls for: 250g rye flour, 100g white flour, 250g 100% hydration rye starter, 350g water (which I decreased to 250g after the first disastrous bake though even that wasn't enough of a decrease) 12.5g salt and 2g yeast.

I've successfully baked Daniel Leader's East European Rye breads several times so I'm familiar with working with a wet dough but the recipe above gave me a batter instead of what I've worked with before.  Since the East European recipe works for me, I wanted to try adding rye berries to it but I don't know enough about sourdough baking to figure out how to do that without throwing everything else out of whack.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

soaker ended up with too wet a dough.  That makes sense.  Because a scald will behave differently. Even a scald of chopped berries.  

Just to be clear....the chopped raw berries (not boiled) were soaked overnight in the refrigerator?

Spotz's picture
Spotz

were boiled first for 20 minutes and as per the recipe, let to stand covered overnight.  It didn't say refrigerate but I did.  Is that where I went wrong?  Could you explain why that would make a difference?  I want to be able to understand this stuff well enough to get creative with other kinds of future loaves as well.

 

Spotz's picture
Spotz

my previous reply to the question about percentages and realize now that I didn't describe my process accurately.  I'm getting confused with all my failed attempts at this recipe!  The last time I baked the bread was as described in the "The whole rye berries..." response. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the way to be creative is first to add up the numbers...  

150g chopped, boiled rye berries to be soaked in 150g boiling water for 20 minutes.  Instead, I soaked them overnight in the refrigerator.  The rest of the recipe calls for: 250g rye flour, 100g white flour, 250g 100% hydration rye starter, 350g water (which I decreased to 250g after the first disastrous bake though even that wasn't enough of a decrease) 12.5g salt and 2g yeast.

water:  125g water from starter + 250g water = 375g

flour:  250g + 100g + 125g = 475g

hydration:  375/475 = 0.789 or  80%  Which is fine for an 80% rye. ( 80 to 85% is normal for a panned rye) It will be a very thick batter or paste.   Adding the 100g water would make it 100% hydration, like the starter.  

Now the chops.  Adding drained chops should not interfere with the hydration.  Dry chops would reduce the dough hydration during the bake.  Scalded drained chops will have soaked up the hot water and add sweetness and some firmness to the dough.  Boiled chops and left to soak up the rest of the cooking water will not be wet unless, unless you added another 150g of water to soak up overnight.  Could this be what happened?  

To answer a previous Q., Sticking them in the fridge wouldn't have made any big difference.  If you boiled the chops for 20 minutes, they will have lost a lot of moisture into the air while simmering.  But I don't think I would have soaked them after that.  I too would more than likely stick them into the fridge in a little container.  (they go great in yoghurt by the way)

Rye berries chopped should not be dripping wet or squishy.  Think of them like adding nuts.  They will get coated in dough and then be part of the crumb.  If you have them in your hand and they contain a lot of liquid, then they will add water to the dough.  Don't think you want that.  Did the recipe say to boil the berries or pour boiling water over them and let them soak.  I can't imagine it said both, to boil and then soak the berries in more water.

No need to get confused or flustered about adding rye berry chops, make them separately and add to your favourite recipe like nuts.  Drain them well so they don't interfere with the dough hydration... I actually go for 83%.  Butter and flour my pans and spoon in the dough.  :)

Spotz's picture
Spotz

I appreciate all your help.  I'm going to copy/paste the instructions from the recipe: https://theinversecook.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/schinkenbrot.pdf

I cut back on the water by 100g the last time with very little difference in the wetness of the dough. 

If I'm understanding correctly, I can't expect this recipe to be firm enough to shape and bake in a Dutch oven as opposed to a pan so this recipe probably isn't a re-creation of the Dimpfelmier loaf I seek. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

but I might be the only one.  Even a wet rye can be shaped enough to plop into a dutch oven (also a pan.)  I use baking parchment.  It's all in the flipping out and handling.  

Have you run a TFL search?  The name of the bread is so familiar.  There must be a long discussion on it. Below is an ingredient list and wheat flour comes first so I would look for a recipe with less than half rye and more wheat in it.

Online ingredients list: Ingredients: Natural Spring Water, Unbleached Wheat Flour, Rye Flour, Rye Grain, Sour Dough (Rye Flour, Natural Spring Water, Bacterial Culture), Whole Grain Whole Wheat Flour, Rye Flakes, Salt, Yeast, Caramel Colour, Cultured Whey Powder (Whey and Bacterial Culture), Rolled Oats.

.

Oh, I forgot to add earlier that feeding the starter with cooked chopped berries is a great way to incorporate them, they get a good soaking and the culture bugs love them.  It is so common place I often forget to mention it.

Spotz's picture
Spotz

said:

"Chopped rye is a very course rye meal.  If you can't find it, boil the same amount of rye grain in water for 20 minutes, chop them with a large knife and soak in the amount of boiling water given in the recipe.  You may have to reduce the water in the dough by about 50-100g."

Actually, I started my search for a recipe here but found only one passing reference.  The recipe I used was the only one online in English and clearly isn't like the Dimpflmeir loaf from the ingredients you listed. I'll look for a different base recipe and try out your suggestions.

Re: feeding the starter with the cooked berries...does that mean instead of using flour, using equal weights of rye berries and water?  Sorry if this is a dumb question!  I'm still a newbie. :-)

Again, thank you so much for your help!! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

http://www.dimpflmeierbakery.com/product/schinkenbrot-black-forest-style-rye-bread/

Ry breads over 40% rye tend to be dense when compared to Wheat loaves. It's the nature of the grain. The more wheat, the more fluff. The more rye, the more dense. Can be a new concept but it is fun to test and push our boundaries of what defines bread. You have probably made some excellent rye loaves and just didn't know it. :)

If you would like some German translations, just let us know. There are several of us here that speak both languages.

Mini