The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Hamelman's Sourdough semolina bread

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hamelman's Sourdough semolina bread

From Jeffrey Hamelman's, "Bread," An all sourdough semolina. The formula has 60% semolina flour. The other 40% is bread flour. Besides sourdough starter, salt and water, the only other ingredient is toasted seseme seeds (in the dough) and raw seeds on top.

This bread has less semolina character than other breads I've eaten which, I assume, had a higher percent semolina flour. Also, the others all used commercial yeast, with or without a preferment. So, Hamelman's sourdough semolina has a more open and a chewier crumb. I did not cold retard the loaves, which is an option, and the sourness was subtle.

We ate it 3 hours out of the oven with dinner. Tomorrow, we'll see what kind of french toast it makes.

Sourdough Semolina

Sourdough Semolina

 

Sourdough semolina

Sourdough semolina

Sourdough semolina crumb

Sourdough semolina crumb

David

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Hi David, my library got a copy of Bread for me and tonight I read about the Sourdough Semolina - and here are your beautiful loaves! Do you use a mixer? I am a bit unhappy to see that he recommends a spiral mixer for most of his recipes. Even so, I think I will have to try this bread, especially after seeing your fine example. So many breads, so little time. Congratulations on the loaves and the pictures, A.

browndog's picture
browndog

I agree with Annie, those are beautiful.

When my copy of Bread arrived I was some dismayed that it doesn't address hand-mixing at all--in fact the subject of my very first TFL post. I've found though, that the recipes work fine as long as you get the doughs properly developed, whatever method you use.

proth5's picture
proth5

Lovely bread...

Buried back on page 249 is a formula with a description of a hand mixing technique of which I have become quite fond.  It can be applied to any bread.

So many people miss it ...

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Wow! David,

Those breads look great. They look like something I would buy. If they taste as good as they look, you have a winner.  My bet is they do taste as good as they look.

Elaine

susanfnp's picture
susanfnp

I agree withe the others, David, those are spectacular loaves. I'm sure it will make magnificent French toast!

Susanfnp

http://www.wildyeastblog.com

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks to all for the nice comments. 

Answers to queries:
I use a Kitchen Aide stand mixer, then do a couple of folds before fermenting most doughs these days.

Hamelman's book seems to be aimed at commercial bakers primarily, with a nod to the home baker. I generally use his guidlines for mixing times but let the dough have the last word. This has generally meant mixing a little longer or some hand kneading after machine kneading. That's okay with me.

The breads were good to eat. The best part was the crunchy crust. I would prefer more semolina character. I want to make the Altamura all-semolina bread in Leader's "Local Breads" for comparison.

The bread made good french toast, but not as good to my taste as the Vermont Sourdough, also from Hamelman, which we also made. Your taste may be different.

David

JERSK's picture
JERSK

   I/ve made a Yeasted semolina bread from theartisan.net. It's 80% semolina, 20% Unbleached flour and 72% water. It had a lot of semolina character. If you haven't checked out that website I heartily reccomend it. It's a wealth of info on Italian breads and general flour and dough theory. Also, some Italian food recipes

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, JERSK,

Thanks for the pointer to The Artisan.I am not only aware of that site, I made the Chicken Cacciatore from there for dinner last night and am having leftovers for lunch today! What a coincidence.

I've not made any of their breads, but I will definitely check it out with your recommendation.
 

David

erina's picture
erina

Hello from a new member.

Wonderful bread you got there! 

I baked the sourdough bread for the first time, using my 10-day-ol wild yeast starter from grapes (probably not yet matured enough), and found that although the taste is excellent, the crust soften up after a while. Is it supposed to be like that? What makes crackly crust that I really love from bakery breads?

Thanks a lot. 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Erina.Welcome to TFL!Crust tends to soften due to moisture moving outward from the crumb. You can get a crisper crust by leaving the bread in the oven after baking, with the oven turned off, for another 5-10 minutes. Typically, crusts on sourdough breads get "chewy" after they completely cool, but not what I would call "soft."
 David

erina's picture
erina

Thanks, David. I will try leaving my next bread  in the turned-off oven for 10 minutes.  Great advice.

-Erina- 

meryl's picture
meryl

David,
 
This is a great discussion.
 
Did you ever have a chance to make both Pane di Altamura from Leader and Semolina sourdough from Hamelman? 
 
Can you describe the differences?

  
Meryl

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Meryl.

This thread is about Hamelman's Semolina. That's the bread in the photos. I have not made the Pane di Altamura from "Local Breads," but it's been on my "to bake" list for a long time.

There is also a semolina bread in Maggie Glazer's "Artisan Breads" that is tempting.

Have you baked any of these?


David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Even Beth Hensperger writes in her bible that both flour and farina (cream of wheat or semolina) are different but made from the endosperm of Duram wheat. I've run the gritty stuff through the blender to make flour. I've found coarse golden duram and did the same.

[img_assist|nid=8085|title=Golden semolina bread|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=488]

Bread came out like I thought it should. I'm not sure if instant semolina (the one that has been high temp steamed & dried) would work.

I think it would.

Maybe spring or winter is the difference.

So far, I can't tell. Anyone know?

Mini O

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

My understanding is that semolina is milled from the endosperm of durum wheat and is often coarser than, say, wheat flour (similar to the texture of medium cornmeal) although I'm sure there are variations. It's distinctly yellow and is what gives pasta (at least the dried variety) it's colour. 

I presume durum flour could refer to any flour that come from durum wheat. Although I'd think that durum 'white' flour would be very similar to semolina with the only difference being particle size.  That said, I don't think I've ever seen durum flour for sale here so I couldn't be sure. 

To further confuse things, I've seen something called 'whole semolina' for sale here in the UK which is supposed to be milled whole durum grain. It looks like normal semolina with brown flecks in it.  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Terminology regarding durum wheat products appears to be unstandardized, as is so much flour terminology in general. To add information (I cannot say, "to clarify."), I suggest you consult the collection of definitional discussions on "The Artisan" web site. The link to that discussions is:

http://www.theartisan.net/sicilian_bread.htm


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The revival of this discussion has helped me overcome my procrastination. (This is no mean feat, speaking as an 11th grade black belt procrastinator.)

I have a poolish for Tom Cat's Semolina Filone (via Glazer's "Artisan Breads") on the counter, alongside a bowl with the required durum/KA AP flour mix.

I just have to figure out the schedule for tomorrow so it doesn't need to go into the oven at the exact same time as the 5-grain levain boules from Hamelman's "Bread."


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8114/tom-cat039s-semolina-filone-maggie-glezer039s-quotartisan-breadsquot

This was the first bread I made with real "durum flour." The bread has a very different texture from the breads I've made with "semolina flour," but this was also a different formula.


David

calliekoch's picture
calliekoch

Those loaves look amazing, David.

I baked these yesterday and was disappointed with the results. It looks like mine were overproofed as they didn't brown very much and had poor oven spring.

Hamelman's formula says you can proof for 2 hrs at room temp or do longer fermentations for 8 or up to 18 hours at 50 or 42 degrees. I did a longer fermentation for my loaves at about 45 degrees for 10 hours and was wondering which method you used. I would really love to try this bread again and get some better results.

Callie

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Callie.

I've only made this bread once and, I believe, I did not retard it. So it was probably fermented for about 2 hours.

The sourdough semolina bread I prefer is my transformation of the Italian Bread in BBA to one made with a natural biga and with the substitution of about 20% durum flour for an equal weight of bread flour. See this blog entry: Today's breads - SF SD from AB&F and Sourdough Italian with Durum Flour. The blog entry Sourdough Italian Bread and Sandwich Rolls has the recipe (minus the durum substitution). 

David

bboop's picture
bboop

Your bread is beautiful.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

deva's picture
deva

these are beautiful loaves.  I consider this to be a lovely Italian complement to any endeavor, toast, sandwich, B&B or B&EVO.  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

I use (successfully) soft wheat flour type 00.  I was told by a friend this is actually Durum flour.  I buy it from Woolworths in Australia.  The brand name is il Molino I ported from Italy.  Hope this helps. Makes the Hamelman loaf beautifully.  My only wish is to put additional and different types of seed in the loaf.  Does anyone know the percentage of seeds allowable for a loaf?  Also if the loaf needs additional hydration.  I once tried to put extra seeds in my durum loaf and it was really heavy and didn’t rise well.  I noticed Hamelman says to be careful not to over knead the loaf (stop immediately if the dough becomes shiny).  

Also for those wondering about KA mixer in the Hamelman book have a look at page 12.  First speed mix 2.5 mins then second speed mix 4 to 5 mins.  

Lechem's picture
Lechem

Just looking at it now and it doesn't say it's durum wheat. This looks like an all purpose flour. Durum Flour has a high protein percentage and will have a yellow tinge. If the protein percentage is below 13% and it's white then I doubt this is durum.

If you can't find durum flour then fine semolina will be the next best thing. It's all in the grind with durum flour being the finest. If you have to use fine semolina then lowering the hydration by about 5% might be necessary.

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

In that case I have not been using durum.  Recipe tasted great and crumb was fabulous.  What a shame.  Now I will be hunting for durum,  again....  

Lechem's picture
Lechem

I find it only really comes alive how the bread is eaten. So toasted and dipped in olive oil or with tomatoes and olive oil really brings out the best in durum flour bread. I'm sure the recipes you have been making are just as delicious if not more so! than using durum wheat alone. It would be nice if you could find some however that doesn't mean your breads haven't been as good because you've been using normal wheat flour. In fact it's probably been tastier.

I'm not overly impressed by durum bread as it stands alone. It's not as tasty. But when prepared as described above it is delicious.

Lechem's picture
Lechem

It's semolina but would work well. Try dropping the hydration by 5% and see how it feels. You can add that 5% water back in if you think it can handle it.

https://www.woolworths.com.au/shop/productdetails/673427/san-remo-durum-wheat-semolina

Durum flour is difficult to find in Australia. This is the next best thing. It's durum flour just not ground as finely hence the drop in hydration.

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

Thanks.  I found this online - does it sound ok to you 

https://www.pangkarrafoods.com.au/products/flour

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem

The real deal. However (and this is not a negative however) it's wholegrain whereas durum flour and semolina is not. It'll make a lovely loaf but be aware it'll be like using wholemeal instead of bread flour. Results will be different to Hamelman's intended durum flour bread but it's the correct type of wheat.

Something to be aware of is that you will probably have to increase the hydration when using this flour following the same recipe. do so slowly until it feels right.

What's the worsed that can happen? Tastier and more nutritious?

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

Appreciate your help and information.  Will try the semolina, but really, the bread with the 00 is really tasty.  I will probably try to do both and have a comparison.  Thanks again 

chris 

Lechem's picture
Lechem

I think initially you'll think... what's all the fuss about and indeed the 00 is tastier. But try eating it the traditional way and you'll see the difference.

You might prefer the 00 for regular baking and use the semolina for when you plan to make it specifically for Italian type recipes.

Whatever the case it's worth trying the original recipe.

Let me know how it goes and what you think.

- Abe.

P.s. "00" refers to the grind and not what flour it is. For future reference. Now I'm curious about the wholegrain durum flour and want to try it myself.

Lechem's picture
Lechem

I have his book and trying to decide what to bake this weekend. I believe he has atleast a couple with semolina/durum flour. Which one do you like? 

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

The one I have used is actually called Semolina Bread but the formula states durum flour.  It is on page 172.  I often add a little extra water tho.  I find if I have a more hydrated dough it tends to give a better crumb.  I noticed in the book he has a quote of “water makes the baker rich” so I am no longer worried about a looser dough.  If I think it’s too loose I give it an extra fold in the bowl using my spatula.  Hope you enjoy the recipe.  

Happy baking!

Lechem's picture
Lechem

Yes, semolina and durum flour are often interchanged which makes it confusing. It is the same thing just a different grind, as discussed. 

My usual supplier of durum flour was out so I've gone for a pasta flour by a company called Doves Farm. It's a mix of wheat (bread) flour and durum flour. Colour is still quite yellow so the % must be high. Think I'll do this recipe.

Just done a build turning a bit of my rye starter into this bread/durum flour mix starter. When matured I'll start the Hamelman recipe. 

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

Hi Abe,  sounds like a great idea.  Does it state percentages of ingredients on the packet.  Be interesting to see how much is in it.  I noticed in a previous comment someone said this recipe doesn’t have a very strong durum flavour.   I am a newbie to all this, I most likely have an “inexperienced/naive” palate, so I hope I haven’t given you the wrong idea.  Look forward to hearing how your bake goes.

Chris

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem

But the wheat flour is listed first so I'm assuming that means it's higher. However the yellow colour is still quite strong. I'm going to say it's around 60:40 bread:durum flour. The protein is 14.3% so quite high! 

Whatever the case I'm sure it'll make a lovely bread. An all durum flour sourdough doesn't have any sour. Something about durum wheat just doesn't bring out that sourdough tang. It's a sweet grain. So this mix might be interesting. 

Will let you know how it turns out. 

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

Hi Abe,

Just bought the above as you suggested.  Looked at the protein content and it is 9.7g.  Hmmm, so my wonderful partner did some maths for me and I am going to add some vital gluten to make it up to 13%.  For each 100g flour replace 5.15g flour for vital gluten.  

The recipe calls for 545g durum flour, so 5.45 x 5.15 = 28g.  So measure out 545 - 28 = 517g semolina and 28g gluten.  

Baking tomorrow.  

Cheers

Chris

Lechem's picture
Lechem

Good morning Chris. 

There are two types that I normally get. One is fine semolina and it's around 11% protein. The other one which is semola rimacinata (remilled semolina) akaadurum flour is 14% protein. This is the best one I've used and you've probably seen their pasta products... https://www.dececco.it/hr_en/semola-rimacinata-di-grano-duro.html

Don't forget the recipe calls for a mix of durum flour and regular wheat flour so take into account the strength of both. I couldn't get my usual preferred flour so I'm using one that is already mixed. Not sure if it's the percentages asked for in the recipe but it'll have to do. 

About to start the dough. I've noticed it doesn't require an autolyse but do you add one in anyway? 

Chrisunger's picture
Chrisunger

Good Evening Abe,

No I don’t autolyse it, just follow the instructions to the letter as I don’t have much experience with semolina.

Unfortunately I haven’t seen or heard of the 2 semolinas you mentioned.  The San Remo brand is yellow as you mentioned, but low in protein.  

I went onto KA website and looked up their bread flour protein % but they didn’t have it for their durum flour.  So googled it.  Noted generally as 13%.  So I have added vital wheat gluten to make my flours as close as possible to what Hamelman would presumably use?  Thought if I’m going to have an experiment may as well try to copy the recipe as closely as possible.🙂

I have just fed my levain, weighed out everything for the morning etc.  I have fed it with 125% water as stated (generally I just use my 100% one).  It’s just after 9.45pm here, so I’m toddling off to bed.  

Happy Baking.  

Chris

Lechem's picture
Lechem

Great oven spring and the dough behaved very well. Durum flour ferments fast and it's warm today so almost caught me off guard. Watch the dough!