The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Greenstein's Sour Rye Bread

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Greenstein's Sour Rye Bread

I started baking bread again after a lapse of ... lets just say "decades" ... because I could not get good rye bread in my area. So, the first new bread book I bought was George Greenstein's "Secrets of a Jewish Baker." I do wish his formulas used weights rather than volumes of ingredients, but his rye breads are, indeed, "the real thing." In fact, they are better than any I have had from bakeries. (Yeah, I know. I'm in California.)

  This is his Sour Rye. (He also has a Corn Rye recipe that is terrific.) These loaves had increadible oven spring. My scoring was pretty inadequate, and they burst majorly. Otherwise, I have no complaints. Delicious bread.

  Irrational Exhuberance 1

Irrational Exhuberance 1

Irrational Exhuberance2

Irrational Exhuberance2

 

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

 I was able to use all the specified ingredients - Whole rye (not "white" rye), Rye Sour, First Clear Flour and, for the first time, 1/2 cup of "Altus" (stale rye bread, crusts cut off, soaked in water and squeezed out). 

2 hours out of the oven, the bread is moderately sour, chewy crust and crumb. (I've not yet been able to achieve the desired "crackly" crust on this bread. Any suggestions?)

Sour Rye CrumbSour

Rye Crumb


  Sour Rye crumbSour

Rye crumb

David

montanagrandma's picture
montanagrandma

I use the cornstrach glaze, ie: 1T cornstarch whisked into 1 C boiling water, only after it comes out of the oven. When it comes out of the oven brush with this glaze and sprinkle lightly with kosher salt.


Maybe try this way on one loaf and on the other brush during the cook process and then also after ....could be you will come up with a winner!

Susan's picture
Susan

David, Is this the Whole Wheat Sour Rye Bread recipe on page 147 of the hardcover edition?   Very nice bread, btw!

Susan from San Diego

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Susan, 

No, this is called "Sour Rye Bread." 

I have the paperback version of Greenstein's book - First edition, third printing (1996). FWIW, the Sour Rye Bread recipe starts on pg. 168. It's the first recipe in Chapter 3, "Sourdough Breads," and immediately follows the formulas for rye and white sours. 

The text begins, "This is real Jewish rye bread, written by a Jewish baker, made for the most demanding audience in the world,  the New York consumer. ..." 

In my edition, the "Whole Wheat Sour Rye Bread" recipe is on pg. 176 and is the 4th recipe in the same Chapter 3.  

If you like Jewish "deli" rye, you will love this bread.

David

Susan's picture
Susan

I found it!  Page 136 in the hardcover edition, titled Jewish Rye.

 Susan from San Diego

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

I have been using this recipe for a year now and each time it comes out better. The crackly crust comes from Greenstein's recipe for the corn starch glaze which at first I thought was much too thick. When I made it the first time following his recipe, the crust was perfect. I brushed it on several times before and during baking and also using a pan of water for steam. The next time I thought to thin out the glaze recipe and found that the crust was just not as good. It still had a crunch but not like the first batch did.

This is the bread that is the closest thing to any real NY Rye bread I have had since I was a kid.

Elaine

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Elaine,

The loaves I made also were brushed with the corn starch glaze before and after baking, but the crust, while nice and shiney, still got soft as the loaves cooled.

I wonder if leaving them in the oven longer after the bake would give me the crackly crust. Maybe starting them at a higher temperature? I don't know.
 

David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

David,

I think I did leave the breads that were real crusty in the oven longer than what the recipe said.  I was so afraid that they wouldn't be done enough.  I did notice that my bread seems more dense than the one in your picture. I guess it's possible that mine did not proof long enough, I'm not sure as the size of the loaf looks the same. I also got the blow out on the side of the loaf on my first ones. I was trying to use a knife to slash the dough and though my knives are sharp, they are just not sharp enough. When I ran a bakery we used razor blades.  I have to pick up a package just for breads.

You say you have made the Corn Bread in Greenstein's book?  I bought this book for that recipe and so far I have chickened out of doing it several times.  It is because of when he discusses how wet the dough is and I need to make sure I have nothing else to do. How difficult is this one?  I haven't had real Corn Bread like this since the 60's.

Elaine

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

We just came home from our daughter and son-in-laws house where they had a birthday party for one of the grandchildren. Two days ago I helped my daughter make 300 ravioli for the party.

 

Yesterday and today I baked lots of bread. Two 100% spelt loaves, one rye in the Le Creuset (excellent), 2 Italian loaves, 2 foccacio and 4 sour ryes from Greenstein. Tonight when I came online here I was surprised to see a post about the sour ryes. I've made this 3 or 4 times and I always double the recipe. It's a lot of dough to work with and each time I say I'm not going to double it next time. I never listen to myself.

 

Anyway, here's my photos of the sour rye. My crust is not near as nice as dmsnyder's, and the crumb is not as nice either. I didn't have time or energy to put any glaze on the loaves and my slashing is not good but I have to say the bread is great tasting. Other loaves I've made did look nicer. I used first clear flour and medium rye. I didn't have any old rye bread (altus) but I did throw in 1/2 cup of unrefreshed rye sourdough that was in the fridge. I also added 3T vital wheat gluten, just because. After mixing the final dough I let it sit about 1 1/2 hr. and then did one stretch and fold. No kneading. It came together very nice. If I wasn't in such a hurry to get to the party I would have taken more time shaping and rising but like I say this is a Very delicious bread. This is the first time I used first clear flour and I think it made this bread extra tasty. I'll always use it for ryes from now on. As soon as I use up the rye flour I have I'm going to grind my own. 

 

This rye took two days to make and is a job for me but well worth it. I have to say, also, that the rye I make in the Le crueset (NYT no-knead) is also very good. I have it posted here somewhere, maybe in the gallery and elsewhere. It is so easy. I mix everything together, cover, let sit overnight. In the morning I might do one stretch and fold or maybe not. Let rise on parchment in a basket and put into a hot LeCreuset, cover and bake 20 min. covered and about 15 min. uncovered. It's so easy I wish you would try it. The bread is high, light and very tasty with a thin but chewy crust.

 

Great job on your bread dmsnyder. Beautiful. SOUR RYESOUR RYESOUR RYESOUR RYE weavershouse

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Wearvershouse, 

Your loaves look great to me! I've had prettier and uglier results from this recipe, but I've never had a loaf that wasn't great eating.  

I go through more first clear flour than any other. I use it for rye breads and also (in quantity) for the Poilane-style miches I make frequently. I've also started using it to feed my "white" sourdough starters. 

The first clear flour I get from KA. It seems lower extraction now than a couple years ago, and it has less whole wheaty flavor. When I called to ask about this, they had no info. other than that they had changed sources in that time frame. I also learned it is something like 15.8% protein and has very high ash content. That explains a lot about how it performs, especially with rye, and how tasty it is. I love the stuff!

David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

David,

How much first clear flour do you purchase from KA? I have also started to use this flour in other breads but buying it in 3 pound baggies gets expensive.

Elaine

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Elaine,I buy it in 3 lb. bags, usually 2 or 4 at a time. It is expensive, especially with the shipping charges! Hmmmm ..... I've never asked if they sold it in larger sacks. Great idea!
David

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

So, do you just replace all purpose flour with first clear in any recipe? Can it be used in any and all recipes? It really did take my rye to a new level so I'll be using it again. I wish I knew how to buy it in larger amounts or if I could make my own with my own milled flour.

 

Also, where is the corn rye recipe you mention? I looked in Greensteins book but only found cornbread not a corn rye. Thanks again for your post. I hope others try this rye, it's so good. I think it's made like Dan Leader talks about in his latest book. Adding flour and water every so many hours in a two day build. There is no nasty sour taste just a good rye sourdough taste that's (to me) just right.

weavershouse

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Weavershouse,  

First Clear Flour is just whole wheat flour from which part, but not all, of the germ and bran has been removed by sifting. I think, with the right sifter, you could make your own from your fresh whole wheat flour in a snap and forget the expense of special ordering it.  

How you use it depends on where you might want an effect between that of all white flour and all whole wheat flour. The rationale for using FC Flour in rye breads is 1) authenticity, 2) the higher protein content (compared to AP) gives your rye's more gluten to provide what gluten provides, 3) if you happen to like where FC flour falls on the whole-wheat/white flour spectrum for a particular product.  

In my copy of Greenstein's book, the Corn rye recipe is indeed titled "Corn Bread" but not "Cornbread." Read the recipe. If it calls for rye sour, you're in the right place. If it calls for cornmeal, turn back a few chapters. 

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Elaine -

I need to make this bread again, leaving it in the oven for 10 min. after I've turned it off.

Regarding the crumb: This is the most open crumb I've ever gotten with this bread. When I made it the first couple of times, it was much denser. Note that there is no bulk fermentation, just a 15 minute rest after kneading, before scaling and shaping the loaves. I proofed the loaves on a peel, covered with parchment, sprinkled with polenta. I essential used the parchment as a couche. The loaves about doubled in somewhere between 60 and 90 minutes.

My baking stone was very thoroughly heated (90 min.?), and the oven spring was incredible.

I think the difference between this bake and previous bakes of this bread was 1) I developed the gluten more fully, and 2) the really hot stone.

Greenstein's Corn Rye is wonderful. It is not hard to make. Just read his directions a few times and visualize each step before undertaking it. (Works for me.) But working with so much water reminds me more of throwing pots than making bread. You should do it, if only because corn rye has special meaning for you. I have made it only a couple times. I usually am making 2 or more kinds of bread whenever I bake, and the corn rye-making environment is incompatible with doughs that want a dry bench.

If you do make it, let me know what you think. I don't have your frame of reference by which to judge.
 

David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Hi David,

I don't think I have ever left the breads to proof, after being shaped, for more than 1/2 hour. Right after shaping them I have started to brush them with water and covered with a towel for maybe 10 minutes. After that I would start to brush the glaze on top and when it looked dry, I brushed it again. Within 30 minutes these breads were in the oven and the first couple of times I baked them I didn't even use the stone but a very heavy baking sheet with parchment. I did brush them several times throughout the bake with the corn starch glaze. I kept the water pan in the oven the whole time. I need to try baking this on the stone.

My last batch of dough I decided to make 4 small breads instead of 2 big ones. These are the breads that I made with the thinned out glaze. Again I made them on the baking sheet instead of the stone. These breads just didn't want to get crusty. I finally turned the oven on convection, which defeats the purpose of the pan of water as the fan actually dries out the oven.  I finally did get a crust but not like the ones with the heavy glaze.

I have read Greenstein's recipe for the Corn Rye bread several times. I have been cooking and baking for about 40 years and I always "read through" a recipe but, except for the Jewish Rye, I don't always "follow" the recipe. I would have to follow this one exactly. Funny you should mention throwing pots because that is what I thought of when I read it. It sounds like working with clay. Is it difficult to handle?  I think we need to start a thread on this Corn Rye bread. I wonder if anyone else has tried it.

Elaine

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Hi,

The Corn Rye Bread I mentioned is the Corn Bread which is on page 190 of my book (softcover) by Greenstein. Where I grew up in NY the Corn bread was considered a rye bread. It uses a rye sour and rye flour. It was always a very large loaf and you would go into the bakery and buy 1/2 or 1/4 of the bread which they would slice. I don't remember it with a glaze but with a floured crust. It looked exactly like the bread on the cover of his book.

I have tried the first clear flour in my whole wheat bread and potato bread. I didn't use all first clear in exchange for the bread flour due to the cost of it.  I only used about a 1 cup exchange and the results were very nice. I would say they looked and tasted better. I wish you could at least buy a 5 or 10 pound package of the first clear flour instead of the little 3 lb. bag.

Elaine

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Now I see it! Thank you. I remember buying rye by the half loaf or whatever at a Jewish Deli and they had a corn rye. I never could figure out what that was but I liked it better than the regular rye, although both were great. Over the years I've tried to find a recipe and here I have one right in my book. I guess I thought it was cornbread not corn bread. Ha!

 

So, there is no cornmeal or corn flour in corn bread. I'm going to give this a try as soon as the 5 loaves of rye in the freezer are gone. Thanks for telling me about this. I too wish we could buy first clear in larger packages. 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 weavershouse

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have seen immense loaves of rye bread, sold by the pound, in delis in LA. I never bought any, and I don't know if they were "corn rye." When I was much younger, there was a very good Jewish bakery in my town that sold what they called "corn rye." The loaves were round, while their sour rye loaves were ovals. The corn rye was denser. The loaves were probably 1 lb.-size. The corn bread (rye) recipe in Greenstein makes breads that are essentially identical to what I grew up on, as far as I can remember.

David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Hi,

I emailed KA last night to ask if the First Clear Flour was available in any other sizes. I'll let you all know what I find out. My guess is that the 3 lb. bag or 50-100 lb sacks is it. I know that I have no place to store 50-100 lbs of flour, especially one kind.

KA, in their description of the first clear flour does say it has a very high ash content and is excellent for use in a starter.

Yes, the corn rye was always the great big bread in the Jewish bakery that you would buy a portion of. The regular rye bread, where I grew up, was an oval loaf that came in 1 and 2 pound sizes. You would buy a whole one of either or a half of the larger one to have big slices.  The Corn Rye was huge (maybe because I was little) and I doubt if anyone bought a whole bread. One thing, unless it was cut it wouldn't fit into the slicer. The Corn Rye was always more moist.

After reading Greenstein's recipe for the Corn Bread it is easy to see why it was so moist since it is made like working with potters clay.

I really need to make this bread.

Elaine

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I found a source for first clear and other types of flour at a local bakery supply. My last 50# bag was $19. and I picked it up. Unless you live in the country and don't ever go to a population center you should be able to find a bakery or restaurant supply outlet to get your flour at reasonable prices. Get a couple 5 Gallon white buckets at the hardware with seal-able covers so you can store the excess until you use it. Cool is better.

I have taken the approach that the Rye is worth buying in smaller quantities since you don't need as much for most of the breads I make. KA has a nice product line of high quality flours. When I'm trying to fine tune a bread, I buy the best ingredients I can and work on getting everything just perfect in terms of flavor and consistency. When I get it right, I start looking for ways to substitute less expensive components that don't compromise the quality, one at a time. Bob's Red Mill is cheaper at the Supermarket than KA is in the mail but for me the selection is limited. I wish Bob's would wake up and start stocking white, medium, whole grain and dark Rye in my stores.

When I first started baking in the Artisan style I was convinced King Arthur made the best AP flour I could buy. That might still be true but for my money Gold Medal Harvest King is just as good at less than half the cost. Every Supermarket in the greater Milwaukee area carries Harvest King for around $2.09-$2.19 for 5# bags. HK is a great flour and is plenty strong to use for recipes that call for bread flour.

Mike Avery told me a while back that you should find a locally available flour that is priced reasonable and learn to work with it to produce good bread. I have tried to follow that advice and I now know that the handeling is more important than the brand name.
Works for me.

Eric

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

The selection you find in your store isn't Bob's Red Mills choice, but what the store orders..

KipperCat's picture
KipperCat

Grocery stores here will usually special order items if they can.  Often they start carrying those items as well. (Whenever I special order, I'm asked if it's something I would buy regularly.)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks, KipperCat. Both of the groceries I go to frequently carry KA flours. It's certainly worth asking if they will special order for me. However, I've had no luck with such requests in the past with other items. They write down the info. very nicely, and that's the last I hear of it.
 David

suave's picture
suave

Also note that they don't make medium rye, only light, dark, and pumpernickel.

fleur-de-liz's picture
fleur-de-liz

Elaine and David:

What percentage of clear flour do you use in your rye breads? I made one of the French style ryes in Leader's book switching out some of the white flour with clear flour. What I ended up with was a bowling ball! Somewhat the consistency of a giant bagel -- really tough. Needless to say, the bowling ball went into the garbage and I haven't used clear flour since. Would appreciate hearing how you use clear flour and how much you use to substitute for white flour.

Thanks!

Liz

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Liz,

Well, most of the breads I've made using first clear flour call for it. When I've substituted first clear for a white flour, I've replaced all the white with first clear.

The things to keep in mind are 1) First clear is high protein, which will be "stronger" in terms of gluten, and 2) First clear has bran, so, as with a WW flour, you need more water in the formula than when using a white flour.

Also, remember that a rye dough is going to feel stickier than an all wheat dough, so, if you try to add enough extra flour to eliminate the tacky feeling, you will end up with .... Well, a bowling ball.
 

David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Hi Liz,

The rye sour that is used to make the Sour Rye in Greenstein's book is made with rye flour. When making the bread itself the only flour that is used is the First Clear Flour. Greenstein says you can substitute 3/4 of the amount of First Clear with AP and 1/4 with cake flour. He also states that the bread will not taste as good.

The description of the First Clear Flour in Greenstein's book states that it is the "least refined of the bread flours, lower in gluten content and darker in color. It is used primarily in rye breads as rye flour has no gluten. The flour keeps the dark color of the rye while providing enough gluten for the bread to rise. The lower protein content allows for the dense texture and chewy bite."

When I tried the First Clear Flour in other breads I only substituted about 1 cups worth for a recipe that makes 2 pan breads. The rest of the flour in the recipe was AP in one and bread flour in the other. I didn't have any problems with them rising.

Elaine

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

I did hear back from King Arthur's and the only way they sell the First Clear Flour is in the 3 lb. bags.

I have substituted the First Clear for bread flour in a couple of pan bread recipies. I did not use all First Clear but only about 1 cup. I thought the breads were better but not exchanging the whole amount it could have been other circumstances such as the weather.

I have checked around in my area and cannot find a source for this flour locally in any size package. I do live in the country and my sources are limited. I checked with bakeries but around here, the bakeries are not doing much in scratch baking but are purchasing frozen pre-formed dough to thaw and proof and bake. This is the reason I started to make my own rye bread to begin with.

I ran a bakery department in a supermarket and all of our products were frozen and preformed. At that time there were sources for flour that I could have used but they have gone out of business. I guess I will place an order with KA for the different flours that I like to get from them which is the First Clear, Their medium rye, Sir Lancelot (for bagels) and will try their pumpernickel flour.

Elaine

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I tried my hand at the 3 step sour rye today. Actually it took almost 2 days with the sour starter.

 I really like the aroma and flavor of rye with caraway so this was fun for me. I don't know what kind of rye you all were using to get such a dark loaf, I used light rye as called for and this is all the darker I could stand to make it. Internal temp bumped over 200 F.

I think the trouble you had with the blow out on the side has to do with the kneading with dry flour before shaping. Anyway, I've got to run to the butcher to pick some corned beef!

Chow, 

Eric

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

You have some beautiful looking bread there. Did you use the first clear flour, the altus and did you use a glaze? Great job. Thanks for your time.       weavershouse

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Weavershouse, thank you for your kind words. They did turn out well and the flavor is wonderful. I did use the first clear, the altus and I glazed once before baking and again afterwards with a sprinkling of Kosher salt over the freshly applied glaze.

I'm surprised at how the crust turns out. It isn't at all hard and just barely crusty. I did steam for the first 10 minutes as usual with rye mixes. The crumb is very soft considering how dense it is. Overall it makes a great sandwich loaf.

One other thing that's worth mentioning is that the recipe calls for the dough to be poured out onto a floured counter and kneaded. It is this step that caused the de-lamination and blow out of the loaf at the top of this thread. The rye/first clear combination is easily coated with dry flour that may be difficult to incorporate into the dough below. The result is that you might fold the dough and seal the edges but leaving a dry joint in the fold inside. When the dough springs in the oven, the seal breaks and a flap lifts. A better method is to stretch the dough as you knead on a dry counter, using only the smallest amount of flour to arrive at the proper hydration. Take care to stretch the dough exposing the moist inside that will easily adhere to the dough below. I try to make an effort to get good sticky contact between layers when I knead rye breads. This is all that more important since the proofing time is so short and any new flour incorporated into the mix has little time to be absorbed.

Learning to handle rye mixes is a bit frustrating. It took me a while to get a handle on how it should feel and and look, just before I over proofed it. Really great bread when it turns out and pretty good when it doesn't!

Eric

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hi Eric,

the rye loaves look fine. With light rye they are rather light.

Just to compare to a sourdough rye bread made of 100% rye wholemeal (self-grinded, not sifted), hydration 206%.



It's a bit darker.

Harry



---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Harry that looks delicious! Are there any spices in it? It's a little hard to see the top crust but it looks quite dark maybe even black. What temp do you bake to internally with that flour mix?

I really need to work on my portfolio of Rye breads. I was pleasantly surprised the first time I tried a 3 step starter without any spices. I think a high percentage rye is one of the best hearty flavors I have eaten. Very nice after taste.

Thanks for the inspiration, I think I'll keep the starter going and try a batch of whole grain rye next. Would you recommend a similar short ferment and proof with the whole grain? Lot of questions in here, sorry.

Eric (herner (old ancestral name))

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Your comments regarding the blow out are appreciated. I have to get better at working with sticky doughs. 

Do you flour, wet or oil your hands when shaping the loaves?

I have made several ryes that call for white rye flour substituting whole rye or even pumpernickel flour. I prefer the darker, tastier outcomes. In fact, the loaves pictured in the opening were made with whole rye rather than white. 

My wife's favorite, and one of mine, is the all sourdough rye from Reinhart's "Crust and Crumb," except I use pumpernickel for the rye flour and first clear for the bread flour. Using a firm starter, as Reinhart specifies, results in a sourer loaf, which I happen to like.

David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Thank you David. I like to place a small bowl on the counter and wet my hands and the counter top. It makes handling the dough so much easier and cleaner. The Rye absorbs the water like a sponge and I keep going back to the water when it starts to get sticky. When I'm done kneading or shaping, I use a bench scraper to loosen the dough and gently lift the mass with the scraper and my hands. If it's especially high hydration then I have used 2 scrapers but only rarely.

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks for your reply, Eric. 

I've used wet hands forming Corn Rye loaves, and it worked well. I am going to try this with other non-rye slack doughs as well as other ryes.

David

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hello Eric,

just one thing in the beginning: Hydration is 106%, not 206%.
I got a bit confused with the hydration because in Germany we add the 100% of flour to the water percentage. Sorry.
This very high hydration is only possible due to using buttermilk instead of water.

With the bread no spices except salt.
The crust is dark brown, baking temperature is 490°F (start) - 390°F (end).
Baking time for a 1,800 g loaf around 75-80 minutes.

I also made a 3-stage-sourdough of 50% of the rye wholemeal flour, the first two steps with water, from the third step on buttermilk instead of water.

The buttermilk thing is a new experiment that I tried - of course you can just use water. But with water the hydration will probably be no more than 80-90%, and the crust will be a bit less crusty.

Fermentation as usual: Rye sourdough 20-24 hours, dough (loaf) until volume has (almost) doubled. Caution! With buttermilk and sourdough the dough doubles rather fast. Your oven should be preheated after 2 hours.

With the rye wholemeal flour I do not care that much as you folks do over there.
I just grind the grains as fine as possible, and afterwards I bake the flour.
Maybe it is better to store the flour for a certain time, or to do this and that.
But I think that baking a nice loaf is science enough - no need to complicate it, as long as you do not live on selling breads.

Harry


---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Who

le Grain Rye

This is a 80% whole grain Rye sour with the balance of flour first clear. I tried your suggestioon of using Buttermilk which I added in powder form. It's not a pretty loaf  from the standpoint of a smooth crust and even surface. I think perhaps the buttermilk caused the proofing process to accelerate some.  The flavor is full and has a rustic edge. I like the flavor even if its'n perfect.

Eric

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Eric,

It looks good to me. It looks like the crust has some crunch. I can almost taste it.

Elaine

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hello Eric,

I think it's a pretty loaf!
A rustic bread, and rye breads are rustic, needs not to look too even.
I like your bread. If it tasts like it looks, I would appreciate to have a try.

Buttermilk in combination with SD accelerates the proofing process fore sure.

Further on good luck with your breads.

Harry


---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Harry, this bread is better today than yesterday. First time I have had a bread that I could say did that although I have read where some rye breads do. There was a bit of caraway in the starter from the last batch and now I can start to smell it creeping  back into the picture. This is day 3 for this bread and it's really really good!

Eric

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Hi,

Here are pictures of my NY Sour Rye. This bread was from Greenstein's recipe. It uses a 3 stage starter which I wind up refrigerating at each stage for my own convenience. The sour is made with KA Medium Rye Flour and the bread is made with KA First Clear Flour.

This is the closest recipe that I have found that taste like the "Real" NY Jewish Rye that I grew up with. It has a chewy crust and a moist, dense texture.

Elaine

NY Sour Rye

 

NY Sour Rye

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I love the color you got on your sour rye Elaine. You also got you oven spring under control very nicely. How much yeast did you add with the dough?

Good job!

Eric

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Hi Eric,

Thank you Eric. I use less than a packet of the active dry yeast. (I have one of KA yeast measuring spoons that equal a packet)  I love the texture of this bread. I have found that if I let the sour start to rise at room temperature and then refrigerate it I can hold off for the next stage as much as a day.

I am not sure why I get the oven spring that I do, unless it is because the dough is never really 'warm' until it goes in the oven. I seem to get my best rising after the dough is in the oven. I bake it the whole time with a pan of water in the bottom of the oven and I brush it with the cornstarch glaze several times before and during baking.

Elaine

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

They are so evenly browned. Nice crumb, too!

I had this bread for breakfast, toasted, with salami and eggs. A baked apple before and a couple of cappucinos after. That's my idea of a good breakfast.

Tomorrow, I'm making Greenstein's Corn (rye) Bread. (Today's breads are Vermont Sourdough and Sourdough Semolina breads, both from Hamelman's "Bread." I love semolina bread toast, and the only one I've made before is the one in BBA. I don't think I've ever had a sourdough version.)

David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

David,

I'm coming over for breakfast, it  sounds perfect.

I still haven't made the Corn(rye) Bread.  I don't think I have the book '"Bread". What type of bread is the Vermont Sourdough? I was planning on trying to make the white sour from Greenstein's book since I have had very nice success with the rye sour.

Elaine

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Elaine,The Vermont SD is ... Well, it's like San Francisco SD, except from Vermont. It uses bread flour with a little whole rye added. It's 65% hydration. Cold retarded overnight.I've made it once before. The KA bread flour was too strong and I over-baked it, so it was a bit tough. The taste was very good, however. Today, I'm trying it with Guisto's Baker's Choice flour.
 David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

David,

If this Vermont Sourdough is made with bread flour and rye then what type of sour is used?  Is it made with a white or rye sour?  Could you possibly switch to AP flour which is lower in protein for the bread flour to make the adjustment instead of switching the brand?  I am not familar with the Guisto's Baker's Choice flour. What is the difference between that and KA bread flour? 

David, speaking of flours, I ran out of KA med rye flour for the last part, stage 3, of my rye sour. I bought some Hodgeson mills stone ground rye and used that. I hated it. It made the sour drier and lumpy. I found the grains too large, as if they would rip the dough apart. I used it adding a little extra liquid to finish up the sour and quickly ordered more of the KA med rye. I think I would like the Hodgeson Mills stoneground flour to use in a bread dough like the pumpernickel but for the sour it was awful to work with. I was surprised to see that I received my KA order in 3 days...a miracle. Just wondering, what type of rye flour do you like?

Elaine

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Elaine,

For the Vermont SD, I used a wheat SD I've been maintaining with first clear flour. The formula has just 10% whole rye in the final dough.

I have used white rye in formulas that call for it. I know it's traditional in some breads, but, you know, somebody else's ancesters may roll over in their graves, but I'm the one who has to eat it. So, I prefer whole rye. I've used Guisto's and Bob's Red Mill. The latter is a tad coarser and darker. Both are very good. I've also just used KA Pumpernickel flour, which is probably like Hodgeson's Mill, from your description. Which I use does make a difference, but I haven't experimented with the various flours with different formulas enough to have a preference. The one exception is the SD Rye in Crust and Crumb, as previously mentioned.

The only rye breads I ate growing up were Jewish Sourdough rye and Corn rye. I'm enjoying exploring the Polish and Czech ryes in Leader's "Local Bread," but, there too, I'm substituting whole rye for white and enjoying the results.

David

StephenJ's picture
StephenJ

Stephen

fleur-de-liz's picture
fleur-de-liz

Elaine: Those are definitely rye breads from my youth as well! Masterful! I ordered Greenstein's book after reading this discussion.

David and Elaine: Thank you for guidance on using clear flour. It's been a while since the bowling ball bread fiasco so am not recalling exactly how much clear flour I used, but I do recall that it absorbed a great of water, and that I kept on adding more water to the dough. [I keep meaning to keep a journal of my bread baking escapades....] Perhaps with all that extra protein, I should have kneaded longer? Am anxious to read what Greenstein has to say about using clear flour in his rye bread.

David: I haven't tried Hamelman's Sourdough Semolina, but have made Maggie Glezer's Semolina Sourdough from A Blessing of Bread a number of times and it is wonderful. I love the pillowy texture of semolina breads and its slightly sweet, nutty taste, particularly toasted for breakfast. Let us know how the Hamelman formula turns out.

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

Liz,

Thanks for the compliment. Read the beginning of Greenstein's book where he describes all the ingredients and tools. He gives you a pretty good insight as to why he will use or not use something. With this bread I had no problem with the first clear flour but I didn't know what to expect either. This was my first attempt at any type of bread with a sour starter. I have made breads with a sponge, in fact my Challah is made with a sponge. I have even tried to make a rye bread from different recipes over the years. They just never looked or tasted like what I expected a real rye bread to be. This is one of the very few recipes that I have used where I tried to follow the directions (I usually make changes somewhere along the way).

I am sure you will have no problems.

Elaine 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Liz,I'm looking forward to tasting it! The loaves are proofing right now. The dough was super-extensible.

I figure this will go well with sauteed petrale sole and a green salad for dinner tonight.

David

StephenJ's picture
StephenJ

Those are outstanding loaves. I have made the rye and Jewish corn rye. They are as close to the "New Yawk" taste that I grew up with. Now, if I can only get my loaves to look like yours.

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

StephenJ,

I've discovered that just about every cookbook on breads that you pick up has directions for shaping the loaves...the trouble is they are all different for the same type of loaf.

Here again, someone has made my favorite Corn (rye) bread and I still haven't had the guts to try it.  I found that Greenstein's Rye the same as the rye I grew up with from the Jewish bakery in Brooklyn NY. I am going to do a pumpernickel next. If that is as good as the rye I will have to try the Corn (rye) bread. I am not going to have too much time to experiment with new breads until after Christmas. I promised to make a few gingerbread houses.

Elaine

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Elaine,

If I guarentee that the pumpernickel is just as good as the SD rye, would you skip it and proceed to the corn rye? ;-)
 

David

ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

David,

Your comment made me laugh.  I think the reason I hesitate is because I am not wild about working with wet...very wet dough.  I have found letting the dough rest for about 5-10 minutes then lightly oiling my hands does help in working with it. I did this with the pizza recipe I got off this site, I think it's the one from Floyd. It was a great recipe and easy to work with once I oiled my hands.

I'll let you know when I make the Corn Rye. I probably will not publish a photo (unless it's great..LOL)!

Elaine

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

"I'll let you know when I make the Corn Rye. I probably will not publish a photo (unless it's great..LOL)!

Elaine"

Well, from looking at your SD rye photos, I fully expect to see your Corn Rye appearing soon.

David