The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rose L. Beranbaum Rye Bread

  • Pin It
CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Rose L. Beranbaum Rye Bread

I have a problem and would like advice that anyone could provide.  My rye bread is waxy rather than light and chewy.  Do you know what I mean?  I have tried this recipe 4 times and I am not improving.  Could you advise?  Please note that she expressly suggests Bread flour for this recipe.

The following is the recipe I am following.  I quote it in full so you will know my process for this.


Basic Rye Bread-This Yields 3 Loaves…

The Sponge
6…Cups of wrist-temp water
2  tsp … active dry yeast
3 .…Cups Bread flour
3 Tbs .. of Honey 
3 ….Cups of rye

Additional Flour: mix the below items altogether
9….cups unbleached bread flour
1 … Pkg of active dry yeast
4….. Tbs. of Vegatable oil or 4 Ts of butter
Optional: 6 Tbs of Caraway seeds to soak in evening before..
2 ½ ….. Tbs.  sea salt before kneading

DAY I: Sponge
o Place 3 Cups water in large bowl; sprinkle in yeast; wait 10-20 mins. 
o Beat in The Sponge Ingredients; should be thick batter consistancy.
o Cover the bowl, wait for 1-2 hours.
o Put in fridge overnight 8-24 hrs.
o Next day take out and allow 1-2 hours to warm.

DAY II: Mix, etc.
? Add the Addt'l flour 1 cup at a time, graduating from wooden spoon. 
? When all the flour is added then allow to set for 1-4 hours.
o Levy says autolyse not necessary.
? Do Bulk Ferment:Kneade on 2 different occasions
o As needed at 1 hour + intervals; w/2 foldings at Each interval.
?  Divide Wait ½ hour and then form loaves.  .
? Put in oiled pans and then wait 1-2 hours to rise.
?  Meanwhile preheat oven to 450 degrees.
?  Brush top with water for crust.
?  S L A S H….. ½ ''. 

Baking
?  Put in oven at 400 degrees;  Bake for 20 mins.  And then tent appropriately.
? Open door to release the steam w / spoon.
? Then bring down heat to 375 for 40 mins. 
? Per Levy, with Rye necessary to bake 60  mins. !!!!!!
? Note:
o Allow to cool in oven
o Allow 6-12 hours to realign before cutting and eating.

goetter's picture
goetter

(This is the recipe on p324, right?)

I don't quite follow "waxy."  So I'll just meta-critique.

For a while I had the biggest crush on RLB after reading her Cake Bible... that said, I find her taste not to be my taste, as evidenced in so many of the Bread Bible recipes.  And I wouldn't trust any recipe with even 20% rye (which is what you have spec'd above: working by weight, her percentage is 17%, on the cusp but close enough by my prejudices) that doesn't acidify the rye component somehow.

Which flours are you using?

There's a discrepancy between the 6 cups of water that you list up front and the three that you actually add to the sponge in your step-by-step.  If you're really sorta-tripling Rose's recipe you need 4.5 liquid cups.

Much of Rose's charm is the precision that she brings to her directions.  If you're really tripling her recipe, you should carefully triple the amount of each component that she specifies and use precisely that amount.  Better, use this as the excuse you need to get an inexpensive kitchen scale ($30 or so will buy you a perfectly good one, accurate to a gram) and try this recipe by weight.  (Round up to the nearest gram for components in small quantities, five grams for large quantities.  Precision has its limits.)

sphealey's picture
sphealey

I agree with most of what goetter says above and wouldn't disagree with any of it, but I would add these comments:

  • If this is the Levy's "Real" Jewish Rye from The Bread Bible, I consider it a good rye to start with and it I have only failed to produce a good airy loaf with it once out of 50 or so runs
  • I do however always make the sponge the night before, leave it out an hour, then put it in the refrigerator overnight. I don't put the balance of flour on top in the blanket mode because I cover the bowl with Stretch-Tite which is actually airtight
  • I do autolyse if I have time
  • The first 10 times or so I made this recipe I used the bread machine to do the kneading and first rise. Bread machines are very good at sticky doughs because of the nonstick coating
  • Sometimes I do the 2nd rise in the refrigerator too

Give it another try - I think you will like it. I have now moved to sourdough ryes as goetter suggests but I still make this one when I am in a "cannot fail" situation.

Good luck and good bread.

sPh

By the way, the name of this bread bugs me. Can anyone figure out why?

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Thanks so much for your time....

 Waxy is the word I am using to express a heavy oily texture.  My aim is to have a Rye that is chewy but light.  Is that possible?  When I buy my bread from German stores the Rye is always chewy and light and perfect.  And I clearly sense I am 25 life spans from achieving it....

Could you please clarify what you mean when you say

And I wouldn't trust any recipe with even 20% rye (which is what you have spec'd above: working by weight, her percentage is 17%, on the cusp but close enough by my prejudices) that doesn't acidify the rye component somehow.

Hammelman has his breads with much higher than 20% yes?

In answer to your question re the Flour..'Please note that she expressly suggests Bread flour for this recipe.'  Is that the question you asked?  It is made by King Arthur here in USA.

 

sphealey's picture
sphealey

=== My aim is to have a Rye that is chewy but light. Is that possible? When I buy my bread from German stores the Rye is always chewy and light and perfect. ===

By chewy do you mean tooth-tugging such as very light taffy or jaw-working such as roasted soybeans (or even dense bubble-gum)? The former is how the RLB straight rye usually turns out for me - a very open crumb with light tooth-pull and some rye-like chewiness but not dense like imported German or Danish pumpernickel. Most German rye lovers find the RLB straight rye too light and airy.

I would suggest trying it again following the exact proportions of the TBB. I will look for a picture of this when I get home.

Goetter's remark about acidifiing goes to discussions in Hammelman and elsewhere about the chemistry of rye bread. In larger amounts it can turn gummy and unpleasant unless there is an acid to break it down during the initial fermentation. This acid is provided by a sourdough culture and is one of the reasons that most high-fraction ryes start with a sourdough step (even if they add yeast later).

sPh

goetter's picture
goetter

Yeah, maybe acidification is overkill in terms of the mechanical requirements for a "rye" with only a sixth to a fifth actual rye content.  For me, however, it just doesn't taste right otherwise.

From the proportions that CountryBoy spec'd I suspect that his dough is too stiff.  (And by which flour, CB, I meant which brand.  I was wondering if you had too much gluten.  Which rye is also a fair question, too,)

I favor canola oil because it doesn't have a taste.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Yes, sphealey, I am following your process pretty exactly except I only put it in the fridge once  for overnight -after the sponge is made and has set for an hour.........then the next day I take it out and let it rest  1 hour (RLB) or 2 (PR).

Does it make a difference if I use vegetable oil or canola oil?  I have been using canola oil.  Do you use oil?

Are my portions of yeast correct?

countryboy

sphealey's picture
sphealey

=== Does it make a difference if I use vegetable oil or canola oil? I have been using canola oil. Do you use oil? ===

I usually use olive oil but I have made it successfully with both canola and soybean oil.

sPh

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

sPh since I am a novice, may I ask

- what is the difference between the types?

-how much would you use?

 

sphealey's picture
sphealey

Oils are usually added to doughs for two reasons:

  1. Improves rising ability of high-fraction whole grain doughs (see The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for a discussion of what they learned about this between the writing of the original Laurel's Kitchen and the Bread Book)
  2. Softens the crumb of the final bread - which may or may not be desired
Oil also makes kneading sticky dough easier due to pure lubrication.

In my experience, soybean and canola are essentially equivalent. Either one will generate effects 1 and 2. However, both are bland and add no taste to the bread - and there are of no varities to try.

Olive oil will also generate effects 1 and 2. It will add its own slight taste to the bread, and there are many varities you can try ranging from $1/liter to $100/deciliter (OK - I can't afford those super olive oils either)[1]. Olive oil is thought to have some health benefits even compared to canola oil although any of the three are heathier than butter.

I use olive oil because I like the taste, and also because i have a big bottle of it around.

The RLB rye recipe calls for 2 tbs per loaf which is what I use.

HTH.

sPh

[1] The minimun you want to buy is "extra virgin" from Italy or Spain (California, Greek, and other olive oils can be fine but unfortunately only those two countries are serious about enforcing the meaning of "extra virgin"). These are available at reasonable prices from most any supermarket, Trader Joes, Whole Foods 360 Brand (generic), etc. for reasonable prices. Then you can go up the ladder to "estate grown" from Dean & Delucca which is the stuff more expensive than wine.

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi,

this recipe that you are quoting is 4 times the original recipe form the book, but not exactly, also, there are deviations in procedures themselves. As a consequence , the crumb structure is less developed and not as light as you want it to be.

In sponge, you should use 1 1/2 tsp instant yeast, it is more powerful than active dry, and use 2 times more honey, i.e. 6 Tbsp honey, or 1/2 cup sugar.

In the bread dough, again, it is 2 1/2 tsp of instant yeast, not a package of active dry which is weaker. U should use only 2 Tbsp of oil.

 Sponge: ferment for 1 hour, it's enough. You can retard it, but it is not necessary.

Knead bread dough a little, autolyse for 20 min, continue kneading for 10 min longer.

Let the dough double in volume. Fold. Let it double in volume again. [Divide, let it rest, coveved for 20 min.] Then shape, without deflating it much, and let it rise until doubles in volume, about 1 hr 15 min. Bake for 45-60 min, cool on a wire rack.

Good luck!

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

GULP....!  I think you are right...! 

My problem is that I am not able to buy Instant Yeast where I live here in Westchester County, NY.  I guess I have to order from King Arthur yes???  Can I double up the Active Yeast?  Everyone says to definitely not use Rapid Rise..yes?

Re the honey.  I read somewhere that honey feeds the little yeasties but in doing so it speeds up the ferment too fast yes?  no?  That is why I try to go light on honey.  Am I wrong?

I am not sure but I believe you use less oil/butter than RLB. Yes?

 

sphealey's picture
sphealey

Instant yeast is also called "bread machine yeast" by some of the yeast manufactuers - specifically Fleishman's. If your local grocery store carries Fleishman's Bread Machine you got it.

I would avoid Rapid Rise which has unwanted additives, but I would be very surprised if you found any difference between instant and active dry - particulary when using a preferment.

sPh

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

 So then the active yeast is not my problem? 

Maybe I should go lightly on my folding after dividing and before putting dough in the pans.  Problem is that I Love the German Rye that I buy with No Holes.  Some Love holes; I prefer that smooth surface.  But to get it I have to push out a lot of the gas during the 2 foldings of the bulk fermentation phase.

 

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hi all,

yesterday I finished a rye-wheat bread with 80% rye flour and 100% hydration.

I followed the thread above and thought that the recipe of that absolutely easy to make bread would be interesting for you.

To realize the recipe you need buttermilk, and that is the point where I do not know whether you can get it.
The bread is exactly what CountryBoy was looking for: chewy but light.

rye-wheat bread 100% hydration

rye-wheat bread 100% hydration

One with German background probably can "translate" the German flour types into US flour types.

@ goetter: Also probably interesting for you. TA 200 "freigeschoben" !

Harry


Rye-wheat bread 80/20 with buttermilk
===============
hydration 100%

Ingredients:
650 g rye flour (German type 1150)
165 g wheat flour (German type 550)
815 g buttermilk
20 g salt
1 pouch (7g) dry yeast

* Mix all ingredients, knead for 7 minutes by machine, let dough rest for 20 minutes.
* Knead and fold dough just 2-3 minutes by hand. Give dough a rough form.
* Let dough rest for 10 minutes.
* Shape dough with giving it a surface tension. Put it in a bread basket and let it rest until volume has minimum doubled (ca. 120 minutes).
* Put loaf on baking sheet with baking paper, wet loaf surface with wet hands.
* Start baking with 480°F for 20 minutes.
* Finish baking in 60 more minutes with 390°F.


---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

goetter's picture
goetter

type 550 wheat flour => white bread flour

type 1150 rye flour => "medium" rye flour (though I use whole-meal rye successfully. Just make sure that it's milled fine)

TA 200 => Angst und Schrecken

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hello goetter,

thanks for the fast and excellent "translation service".

The TA 200 (100% hydration) is not difficult to handle at all.
With buttermilk no problem. Could as well have been TA 210.

Regards

Harry

P.S.: What is "freigeschoben" in English?

---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

goetter's picture
goetter

TA 200 should be much less terrifying with a mostly-rye dough, yes -- that's only a Sauerteig.  It's just a scary big number that I naturally respond with dread.

freigeschoben = /Free-standing/ or /Hearth style/ (can anybody offer a better English? A word or phrase meaning "baked without the support of a loaf pan").

(I first read your note as "freigehoben" -- imagine my confusion.  I think I was looking for "ausgehoben," a term used to describe a ciabatta-like TA 178 Dinkelbrot that I once helped bake.)

guerrillafood's picture
guerrillafood

Hey Harrygermany,

The bread you pictured looks very much like the bread I have been trying to make ever since I moved home to the US from Germany where I loved for 4 years. I am looking for a recipe for what my German wife calls "Schwarzbrot" or sometimes "Pfisterbrot". Pfisterhof is a company in Munich that makes bread. The problem is, Schwarzbrot isn't really "Schwarz" at all. It looks almost like that you have in your picture.

Do you know what I am talking about? And if so, what is the difference between Schwarzbrot and Mischbrot?

 

 

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hello guerrillafood,

that problem we find rather often in Germany.
People in some areas say Schwarzbrot when they better should say Graubrot or Mischbrot.

Graubrot is "Grey Bread" because the crumb looks a little grey because of rye flour. It is a synonym for Mischbrot.

Mischbrot: It means "Mixed Bread" because of the use of wheat flour as well as of rye flour. Both kinds of flour are mixed together.

We have different Mischbrote:
Weizenmischbrot:
More than 50% wheat (Weizen) flour, rest rye flour.
Mischbrot: 50% wheat and 50% rye flour.
Roggenmischbrot: More than 50% rye (Roggen) flour, rest wheat flour.

Now Schwarzbrot: A dark rye bread, made from bruised grain and whole grain. Sometimes also refered to as brown bread.
Schwarzbrot isn't black (=schwarz). It has a very dark brown crust and crumb.
Baked very slowly with rather low temperature.
By this kind of roasting it becomes a bit sweet (Maillard-Reaction) and generates caramel.
I would say that Pumpernickel also belongs to the group of Schwarzbrote.

Harry



---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

utahcpalady's picture
utahcpalady

HarryGermany,


Your picture looks just like the bread from Germany, since I cannot find anywhere to buy it, I am going to continue to try to make it.  Now, I wanted to clarify, it doesn't appear that you create a starter and leave it for a day etc, right?  Just follow your recipe just like it is above?  It looks terribly simple, and if it turns out like your picture, then the receipe will be perfect in my opinion.


When you "put it in a bread basket" do you want it to dry out a little when rising? Normally you cover bread when rising.  Wont the bread go flat when removing it from the basket and transferring it to the baking sheet? Tips? Tricks?


Another note, I grind my own rye grain, what type of Rye will that then be considered?  Do I need to do anything else to it?


If anyone needs a GREAT source for grain, go to www.montanamilling.com and email Cheryl Holdorf  She is great.


Thanks,


MW

mariana's picture
mariana

CountryBoy,

instant yeast is what RLB uses in her recipe. To substitute, to replace each gram of instant yeast, use 2 grams of active dry yeast.

I dont' know what everybody says about RapidRise. All instant yeast is the same, absolutely identical, it is simply sold under different names due to different packaging: as Instant Yeast (by SAF), as RapidRise (by Fleischmann's), as Bread Machine Yeast (by Fleischmann's), as QUICK.RISE (by Red Star), etc.  This yeast is a combination of 2 different strains of baker's yeast and it produces more gas when ferments if compared to active dry and fresh (compressed) yeasts.

http://mariana-aga.livejournal.com/2895.html#cutid1

 How much honey to use is up to you. We are discussing here the original RLB's recipe and, if quadrupled, it would amount to 1/3 cup of honey for your loaves. Honey influences the flavor, moistness, and keeping qualities of breads. Speed of fermentation is another story - the major factor here is dough temperature.

The same can be said about oil in this recipe. If you take RLB's recipe and quadruple it, you would obtain 2Tbsp of oil, total, for your three loaves of bread.

 There is only one folding in the recipe: after the first doubling in volume during bulk fermentation. After the second doubling in volume, you don't fold, but divide, bench rest and shape loaves. If you proceed properly, you won't have huge irregular holes, but a nice regular crumb structure, a delight for your eyes.

 good luck!

mariana

 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

I guess this yeast thing is easy to confuse, so, I will just double my active yeast to equal the more potent yeast.

Also re your comment that:

There is only one folding in the recipe: after the first doubling in volume during bulk fermentation. After the second doubling in volume, you don't fold, but divide, bench rest and shape loaves. If you proceed properly, you won't have huge irregular holes, but a nice regular crumb structure, a delight for your eyes.

Mariana thanks for your perseverance on this and thanks to everyone for their patience and guidance.

I have been baking bread for 11 months now and find that each time I have so much to learn.  But am so grateful to you all.

 

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

You have more fingers.

Mariana said:

instant yeast is what RLB uses in her recipe. To substitute, to replace each gram of instant yeast, use 2 grams of active dry yeast.

But... if you look at Fleishmann's packaged yeast, you'll find that the packets of instant (rapid rise) and active dry yeast are the same size, 1/4 ounce. This suggests that they aren't THAT different. Fleishmann's suggests that instant/rapid rise will raise bread 50% faster. However, most of the gain comes from not doing the proving step that is suggested for active dry yeast, and from the instant/rapid rise yeast dissolving and activating faster.

If you look at the SAF web site, they suggest that you should use 25% less instant yeast than active dry.

Personally, I never proved the active dry yeast when I used it. Back in the 1970's a bread writer suggested that active dry yeast was so reliable that it wasn't necessary to prove the yeast. I never had failures I could attribute to my not proving the yeast. Around that time James Beard said he didn't like that new technique, feeling that it robbed the bread of some flavor. I never had that experience.

Back to Countryboy's rye. I don't think the yeast is at all an issue. If you use one of the yeasts instead of the other and don't adjust the quantity, the worst that will happen is that your bread will rise more rapidly or slowly than the recipe predicts. And that can happen for any of a dozen other reasons, some of which would be the temperature of the water you used, the temperature of your flour, the temperature of the area where you raised the bread, the hydration of you dough, the dough development, and the flours you used.

Mike

 

sphealey's picture
sphealey

At least in the Fleischmann's product line, instant yeast is not rapid rise. Rapid rise has dough conditioners added to cause fermentation to speed up. Instant is just a different packaging of the yeast granules that promotes fast dissolving (it might have a tiny bit of citric acid as well).

This is not necessarily true for other manufacturers, but for Fleischmann the products are:

  • Active dry
  • Bread machine = instant
  • Rapid Rise
sPh
Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

I have to admit I gave up on Rose's books.  She is obsessive, and all too often obsessive about things that don't matter.  I do have a few comments and questions though.

 

What kind of rye flour did Rose specify?  And what kind did you use?  In the USA, there are 4 commonly available rye flours.  White rye, medium rye, dark rye and whole rye.  As you move from white to whole, the taste of the rye becomes more intense, and the rye flour will reduce the rise of your bread.  Medium rye is a good all-around rye.  Good taste and you still get a good rise.  However, in recent trips to the store, all I am finding is whole rye.  Which will make a BIG difference in your recipes.

Dark rye is the least well defined rye.  In some cases it is whole rye.  In others it is a lightly sifted whole rye.  In others, it is the stuff that is left over after the medium rye has been sifted out of the whole rye.

Also, rye has very little gluten in it, and what there is, is of very low qualty.  Most bakers tend to develop the dough, form loaves and bake it as soon as it rises.  Some bakers will tell you that a good loaf of white bread can sit for up to an hour after it has risen to it's optimum height and still bake up OK.  This is called tolerance.  The same bakers will tell you that a rye bread has about 6 minutes of tolerance.

However, with the relatively small amount of rye in this bread (3 cups out of 18 total cups of flour) I am inclined to think that this would handle more like a white bread than a rye bread.  Still.... I'd reduce the rises and handling of the dough.

Mike

 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Mike, thanks for the very excellent question re flour.  I am using

 Hodgson Mill All Natural, Stone Ground, Whole Grain Rye Flour. 

It seems a bit rough to me and definitely not smooth. Do you by any chance know what kind of rye it is? It does not say on it.  It is the only Rye flour in any of the stores around here and I have looked extensively.  I am trying to avoid sending off to King Arthur for rye.

Thanks.

 

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

The words "Whole Grain Rye" on the label are proabably a hint. (Sorry, it's late, and I just aquired a nice bottle of single malt Scotch whisky... it's my birthday.)

As I mentioned, I am having trouble finding anything other than whole grain rye these days. Whole grain rye, when used beyond about 10% baker's percentage, will definitely impact your rise and other bread characteristics.

Check with Rose's book as to what she calls for. And then look around for other sources of rye, if that is needed.

As to other sources, if you know any restaurant owners, you might ask them if they could order some flour for you from their suppliers. If you ask REALLY nicely, they might let you call their supplier directly and ask about what sorts of flours they have available. However, the commercial suppliers usually sell in 50 lb bags. If that is the case, make sure you freeze the flour - rye goes bad more quickly than other flours.

Mike

PS - If they order flour for you, you might reward them with a loaf of bread or three.  Mike

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Folks, I won't bother you with this question again if you do not think it relevant, but here goes.  I am using.....

         Hodgson Mill All Natural, Stone Ground, Whole Grain Rye Flour

As I mentioned above it seems to have a meal like consistancy and not to be fine ground at all. In RLB's TBB she lists or describes medium rye flour and dark rye flour in her discussion of rye.

Since I am a Novice, I have no basis of knowing what it is I am working with versus what I should be working with. HarryGermany says to work with a finely milled rye flour.

Now over at the King Arthur website they list:

Medium Rye Flour Medium Rye Flour Item 3470
 
$4.25Add
  
  
  
Organic Pumpernickel Flour Organic Pumpernickel Flour Item 3472
 
$4.25Add
  
 
  
Rye Bread Improver Rye Bread Improver Item 3207
 
$4.95Add
  
  
  
Rye Flour Blend Rye Flour Blend Item 3335
 
$4.95Add
  
 
  
White Rye Flour White Rye Flour Item 3471
 
$4.25

Am I  just as good with one type of rye as another; are they really about the same as what I am using?  If I don't have a frame of reference it is difficult to distinguish what I am working with. There is no other choice for rye flour in a 25 mile radius from here.

And I know the question sounded stupid to you Mike so I will drop it after this last attempt.

Thanks. 

goetter's picture
goetter

She's quite sensitive to bitter in her recipes.  And her "Real" Rye is really a wheat bread that went out for a date once with a rye once.  So KA "medium" rye is what you want.

But the more I think about it, what you /really/ want is a different cookbook.  Given RLB's fussy amount of detail, and your repeated avowed preference of going by feel, the RLB approach might be wrong for you.  Nothing wrong with that.  Maybe you might be happier with Ortiz's /The Village Baker/ - he spends a lot of time with his hands in the dough, with less fussing over minutae.

(As a bonus, Ortiz doesn't have any recipe called "Authentic" Pumpernickel Bread that depends on vinegar for acidification.  Ugh!  For shame!)

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Thank you folks for the guidance.  ...

sphealey's picture
sphealey

Bob's Red Mill currently has light rye (no bran) and organic whole dark. They used to have a medium but that isn't in the online catalog at the moment; you could probably make it by mixing the dark and light.

From the light rye description:

Light Rye Flour (unbleached) is bran and germ-free to make a lighter rye bread-both in texture and color.

A nice thing about BRM ryes is that they are listed as nut-free. Most King Arthur ryes are listed as nut contaminated.

sPh

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

I am sorry if my last reply seemed condescending or rude. 

However, the question is what does the recipe call for?  I no longer have the cookbook, so I don't know.  However, I would guess either a medium or white/light rye.

Dark and whole rye flours are rarely used, and rarely as more than about 10% of the total flour in a bread.

Rye flours are decidedly NOT the same and they can not be interchanged willy-nilly, any more than cake flour and bread flour can be interchanged.

I find it appalling that people who have never baked decide what the grocery and health food stores will carry - while I applaud the whole grain movement, it is not always approrpriate for specific styles of bread.

Mike

 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Thanks for your response and clarification. 

You ask: However, the question is what does the recipe call for? 

The answer is RLB lists just "rye flour"  for her Levy's Real Jewish Rye Bread on page 325  (Also in that recipe is bread flour which she says she prefers it to AP to make it chewier.)  But she does not distinguish betweeen rye flours in her 4 page recipe for this recipe.  However, in the back of the book she discusses rye flour for two paragraphs but again she does not really say which one is the best even in this more detailed discussion at the end of the book.  She does say "White rye flour is milled from the center of the endosperm and has little, if any, of the characteristic rye flavor."  Would you agree with her on that? 

I think you can see why my question would rise in the context of this recipe.

Another question if I may, re when you say that:

Dark and whole rye flours are rarely used, and rarely as more than about 10% of the total flour in a bread.

So when Hamelman discusses rye bread recipes of 40, 60, 80%+, I guess that is refering to a special kind of rye flour..Yes?

Also, do you think that we should start a whole new thread on just Rye Flour, so, you can discuss it and other people can benefit from it?

And just parenthetically, I know I keep telling people on this forum repeatedly that I am a Novice in bread making with only One year of experience, but I am wondering if Floyd would want to divide the Forum into Novice and Advanced. That way Advanced people don't get bored, held up, or frustrated by questions from people like myself who are Novices.  I mean some of us Novices are just never going to get to the point of using ph test strips, etc., so, probably getting out of the way of the Advanced ones could be of great benefit in overall communication of members on the forum as a whole.  What do you think?

sphealey's picture
sphealey

I have made RLB's Real Jewish Rye with Bob's Red Mill Whole Rye (dark), Bob's Red Mill Medium, King Arthur Pumpernickel (which is a whole rye one or two grinds coarser than the standard for US whole rye flour), and up to 20% Bob's Red Mill Pumpernickel (a whole-berry grind that I believe is similar to actual German pumpernickel meal - the pieces are about 1/2 mm in diameter). All have been successful.

I guess I will have to make one next weekend and take pictures ;-)

=== That way Advanced people don't get bored, held up, or frustrated by questions from people like myself who are Novices. ===

In my experience one never really understands something until one tries to teach it to someone else - and then again to someone who has no shared basis to start with.

I could see adding a self-set flag for "beginner topic" vs "advanced topic", but if anyone (even utterly new beginners) is going to used Internet sources for learning they will have to learn how to skip over stuff that is too advanced and/or irrelevant sooner or later - and also learn when to abandon a discussion that has gone too far into techncial details.

sPh

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Like I said in the new thread, I am surprised that RLB didn't specify which flour she wanted her readers to use.  She is usually SO exhaustive in her details.

 

You asked..

I think you can see why my question would rise in the context of this recipe.

Another question if I may, re when you say that:

Dark and whole rye flours are rarely used, and rarely as more than about 10% of the total flour in a bread.

So when Hamelman discusses rye bread recipes of 40, 60, 80%+, I guess that is refering to a special kind of rye flour..Yes?

It all depends on what you want.  As you go to darker ryes, you get more flavor and yoru rise is impacted.  So, is a flatter, but more flavorful, bread OK with you?  Or is a more risen loaf better for you?

In the class I took, it seemed Jeff used either a medium rye or a pumpernickel grind when making pumpernickel.

When making rye breads with more rye, acidification and the 3-stage detmolder process are definitely major assets.  And all the more so if you are using darker ryes.  However, my suggestion would be to start with a medium rye, get the mechanics down and then move on from there.

Mike

 

browndog's picture
browndog

CountryBoy, I do believe that the more adept bakers on this forum welcome and enjoy questions, that answering them gives a brain boost to the respondents as well as to the askers, and that if we were to be divvied up it would be a loss for both camps.

It seems to me that TFL's goal is to provide an environment where people share their knowledge and experience rather than to hoard it; to provide a broad opportunity to learn, even beyond our comfort zones.

If Bill and others had been tucked away in the 'clever puppy' corner, I would to this day be ignoring my starter as a sort of annoying guest, taking up space behind the zucchini relish in the way back of my fridge.

EsmereldaPea's picture
EsmereldaPea

I know this is an old thread, but I felt compelled to post. I love making and eating rye bread (look at the milling forum for my post on fresh-ground rye flour and some pics).

No one has mentioned the sticky wicket of those who make bread by "feel" not being familiar with just how rye dough SHOULD feel.

Rye dough is very sticky. If you are used to making wheat bread, there is a decidedly different feel to rye. It is not as noticeable in a mixed recipe as in a 100% rye recipe, of course, but still a different feel. If the suggestions that others have given you haven't worked, try adding a little less flour when kneading.

The other thing I want to say is that if you love rye, don't let anyone scare you out of it. It takes a little more practice to get it right the greater proportion of rye flour you use, but the results are well worth it. There is some chemistry involved in the fact that sourdough starter works better with rye loafs than yeast (or a combination of the two).

I hope this helps

 

Esme

ryan's picture
ryan

Hey CountryBoy, I've used this book frequently, and you should definately check RLB's math. Use the percentages and watch the numbers change! I use to make her white basic sourdough boule and the percentages she gave in the book were far too high. Like 60 %.

So check the numbers and then make the bread again. So page 328 right?

If you just take the sponge flours and divide them by the water you get a 59% hydration versus her so called 62.9%. Which is a huge difference !

 Anyways you can come to your own conclusions about the math!

Happy baking,

Ryan

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Not sure if it affected your attempt at making Rose's rye, but be aware that some early editions of her bread bible (and other books) have typos. She has an "errata" page on her real baking with rose website:

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/book_errata/

will slick's picture
will slick

I picked up a two pack of enough instant yeast to last me a very long time. So much that I gave one of the packages to mt daughter. Less than $5.00 i think it was. Also I am sure you could find the Sm packs of instant yeast at any supermarket in the westchester area.  The BJ's I went to is in Yorktown heights on 35 right near the taconic. Also if there is a whole food store near you you can get arrow mills rye there. Many on this site recommend it.