Starter not Finishing
I bought Emmanuel Hadjiandreou's book "How do make bread" I loved the idea of a small little jar mother that you take a tablespoon out and that becomes your sponge. I tried it, with amazing results.
Nothing in my life bubbled and foamed like that starter did. I used whole wheat flour, and my cup easily turned into 2 cups of pure sourdough cappuccino. I was thrilled and quickly turned to Ed Wood's Basic Sourdough recipe.
I followed the recipe to the letter, but my bread did not rise, barely doubled in size. Where was the violent cappuccino? I realize my sponge had started with only a tablespoon of starter, adding a cup of flour and 2/3 of a cup of water, why did it steam out?
My resulting bread was flatter and denser. Don't get me wrong the taste, texture and tang were wonderful. I like dense breads, for me the age better. But where is the puff?
Has anyone else had the experience of Hadjiandreou's starter turning into a great sponge but not rising to a great bread.
Please note: above is the resulting bread. It blew out the side because frankly I thought it was a total failure and I just wanted to get it over with, it rose, not a lot, but tasted quite good.
Comments are welcome.
Does anyone have any experience using Emmanuel Hadjiandreou's 'tiny' starter, one that goes uses tablespoons from the mother rather than cups? I tried it and my bread did not rise.
Advice?
No Muss No Fuss starter works for a lot of people here, including yours truly, a new baker.
Of course, your question is really on lack of bread rising and there are many reasons for that. I suspect immature starter or bad ingredients/technique if you followed everything else to the letter.
Please note that bad bacteria will make a flour/water mixture bubble as much as the good stuff that you want in a starter. Only make the NMNF once you have a stable culture to start with.
Murph
Thanks, that is one thing about baking, especially bread-baking is that there are a lot of variables. I just wanted to make sure the tiny starter method is valid.
One person loved the idea of not throwing out starter, but I have seen that one tablespoon praised only once in a blog and no one in any forum I could find has commented on it.
I will say the bread was flat, but for me flat deflated dense bread is perfect for a sandwich.
O
I looked up that big bucket site, and quite frankly, those charts and numbers threw me off. I thought this was no fuss?
Is there a No Mess No Fuss recipe for a No Mess No Fuss starter?
O
to build up the tablespoon of starter?
I keep a "mother" also called a "seed or a "sour" or "the sd culture" and take small amounts away for making bread. Discussed here hundreds of times and not under the heading of Mr.Emmanuel Hadjiandreou. After years of working with starters I use this method or whatever works in the situation I find myself.
To test yeast, I often use 10g starter and add 100g each water and rye flour (I have a rye starter and it requires more water ) so 100% hydration. Mark the levels. Then use it in a favourite recipe when it reaches peak. If not happy with the test rise, I repeat it after the starter starts to fall down. Normally I double or triple the spoon amount (20g) of starter and after a few hours when it's risen, feed it again for the amount I need. I try to time it so it is ready when I'm wanting to mix up my dough. With cool room temps I use more starter, warmer temps -- less. Less sour, more starter and for tang, less starter with a longer build using the recipe dough. Adding fresh unleavened dough near the end of a long fermenting time might give you the "fluff."
If you search the archives, you will find that some of us have gone down as low as 2g, or 5g (1tsp) but the starter seems more stable if one doesn't go below 10g. Starter amounts are greatly influenced by temperature and cooler dough temps will have a great influence on the speed of the fermentation, yeast and bacterial growth. There is also other things to think about in long slow fermentations such as the integrity of the dough itself. Sooner or later the working window for making a loaf without adding fresh flour closes and you are left with a large amount of spent dough or starter.
Anyway, to go from one spoonful to a loaf without taking what seems like forever follows in steps, creating ideal conditions for bacteria and yeast growth for the desired bread.
It would be helpful if to include more detail about the pictured bread. A photo of a cross section (crumb shot) of the loaf might show what was going on in the dough at the time it was baked. Also temperatures, any handling of the dough or impressions while following the recipe. Most recipes are guidelines and individual kitchen conditions need to be considered.
So far the picture indicates a panned loaf, a set tight top crust (was it covered while rising?) A split, most likely caused from under-proofing or under developed very wet dough. What does the bottom look like? I also have to wonder if the pan was too big for the loaf. Color over the net is hard to read but was it baked long enough considering the lack of rise. Did it brown on all sides? What about the crumb structure? Where is the loaf compacted or dense?
How did you build the dough? How long did it rise? How was it shaped? What temp was it baked and where in the pre-heated oven?
Yeah, you could just eyeball everything or, better, use scoops and cups, but you'd just be cheating yourself.
Use weights and learn how they play together as ratios. Or, be doomed to always wondering why something doesn't work and live with the frustration that nobody seems able to help you at the level of perfection you are seeking.
Don't give up! It's not really that hard if you'll buckle down and learn this stuff. I was with you in that boat just a month or so ago. Once you're comfortable with how it's supposed to work, you'll gain confidence in cutting an hour here, a gram there, and still put out good loaf. There's a LOT of awesome info here but you do have to look for and read it. :)
Your question on a tiny starter, not throwing anything away, and not screwing with it except to scoop some out and start baking is best answered with NMNF, in my opinion. The question on a poor rise has many answers. Did Ed Wood's recipe list grams and times and temperature and you nailed all those as you had written? If so, look to ingredients and technique.
Have fun!
Murph
I ordered a good kitchen scale, a bowl scraper and a proofing bowl. I say bring it on. But really Murph, do you have an Idiot's Guide to the NMNF recipe?
As far as conditions of that flat one, Let me try and remember the most I can.
I had a all purpose starter that has been starting great on a few recipes. I used a tablespoon of the starter and 1 cup of whole wheat flour and 1 cup of warm water, left it overnight, and the next morning it was jumping, thing looked like a sponge dipped in peanut butter. It was so frothy. Ambient was about 74 degrees (we keep the house cold at night, house very well insulated.
I took a cup and combined it with 1 cup of water, 1 teaspoon of salt, 3.5 cups of all purpose flour. I mixed it up and then kneaded it, I put it in a bowl to rise for about 8-12 hours. After 8 hours there was no rise, and since my wheat bread sourdough had gone bananas by now, I gave up hope. I pressed the dough, saw my fingerprint and that stayed for another hour. Took it out, frustrated, let it rest for 30 and then kneaded it and put it in the bread pan. Proofed it for about an hour at 78 degrees then for about 2 hours at 80 degrees. No real rise, just a crawl to the corners of the bread pan. The dough was low and I said let me just try it. I put it in the oven at 375 for 30 minutes in a Breville. The recipe recommended 375 for 70 minutes but I have never been able to go beyond 35 minutes. It looked and sounded good, except for the blown side that I did not slash because by now I had given up hope.
I said before and I say it again, the taste was great, perfect bread for a sandwich (heck with that blow in the side I hardly have to slice).
Here are some pictures of the unintentional flatbread
Unintentional Flatbread (Web view)
My thoughts are a cup of jumpy starter to a cup of water and 3.5 cups of flour should be ready to bake in two hours. I'm thinking that it sat too long. Your poke test that stayed for an hour indicates likewise. Did you go to work, hoping for the best but came home to a sunken pipe dream instead? :)
Try the same thing but shove it in the fridge. Let it rise for an hour before or after the fridge - whatever is convenient.
If you've done good loaf before, your starter should be ready/mature enough to firm up for long, cold storage. Take some measure of that - say a pea-sized measure of starter. Then add two peas of whole RYE flour and a pea of water. Should be like toothpaste with sawdust in it - think flavor crystals! Knead it all together, let it sit on your counter somewhere between 50-100°F (94° is the sweet spot) for an hour and a half and put it in the fridge. That should get you close while you read and learn the NMNF method.
Notice how small and pathetic that amount is and how imprecise the "Idiot's Guide" is. Hardly satisfying. Ramp it up along those lines to an amount that you feel like storing, ignoring and baking with for the next four months and you've accomplished what you're looking for!
Easy-peasy, lemon-squeezy! :)
Remember...
Have fun!
Murph
“Cover and let ferment overnight.”
That was the initial proof of the starter. My problem, the only problem I have is going from fridge to sponge. But I am not sure I proofed it too long, just followed the instructions in the book. So you tell me do it for less time?
Not to worry, Im having fun.
O
I would suggest more dough-watching than clock-watching.
If you walked for eight hours and came back to poke and got a finger that stayed for an hour, I'd be like, "dang, didn't I read somewhere that it should spring back 3/4 of the way within a minute or so?"
Then I'd use the search box for "finger poke test" and find answers for why yours didn't rise and fill in.
Have even MORE fun!
Murph
By the way, pay strict attention to what Mini Oven has to say about starters and, really, troubleshooting in general. She's one of the many veterans here who knows what she's talking about. I'm too new - like you - to be of much use beyond pointing you to someone else like dabrownman's NMNF starter
There's lots of ways of doing a starter. I like NMNF because I'm lazy. NMNF is firm. Others like liquid. You choose. Which brings us to dough rise. Lots of ways to do that, too.
Why not skip the starter and use packaged yeast? What about baking powder/soda? I'm currently looking for "flavor." Lots of ways for that, as well.
That's what's fun and frustrating about a hobby. Like racing cars. Lots of ways of winning but what are YOU prepared to do?
Have fun!
Murph
Sounds over-proofed to me too. :)
(I can't pull up the pics w/o signing into Microsoft.)
Whole flours are especially speedy when compared to their sifted counterparts. Got to get mine into the oven now or risk the same.
So I waited too long between rises? Or did the starter over-proof?
After mixing up the dough, it might have risen in about 5 hours, perhaps sooner.
Thanks, Mini Oven! I feel like I got a passing grade on a snap quiz. :) A month ago, I couldn't have even guessed the answer.
Seriously, though, new guys like me are encouraged to read TFL fairly regularly because small bits of information like your thought on whole grain flours being faster are scattered throughout. Your comment becomes part of my store of information that I don't think I could have used the search box for much less, be able to form a search term for a question I don't know enough about to ask. If that makes sense.
Anyway, thank you again for your valuable time here. That's most generous and gracious of you.
Murph