The Fresh Loaf

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Need advice...new to sourdough....

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

Need advice...new to sourdough....

Hi,

   I have baked some "bread" in my time...but not BREAD. After learning about fermentation and what it does for the foods we eat, I can see no other way. I hope I am not stepping on any toes!

  A few years ago we purchased some bread at a European store called "Slavic Rye". I believe it was made in Latvia.

  I was some mighty fine rye bread!!! My favorite was toasting the bread and smothering it with giblet gravy and turkey!

 However, I cannot find this bread any longer...the entire label was in what I would assume to be Latvian, however the label said "SLAVIC RYE" in English, so it apparently was intended for export to English-speaking countries.

 Now I haven't been able to find the bread for two years. I wanted to save a label "just in case", that never happened. So I would like to begin my journey into sourdough right here.

  I have a couple of daughters that REALLY appreciate sourdough, so I can accomplish something here by learning along with the family members. Both my wife and I find that the "delicacies" in the bakery section of the store are upsetting our systems, so there is additional stimulus to pay attention.

 

  I purchased the Ed Wood "Polish Rye" starter; I soon found this site, and there seems to be a difference of opinion here regarding the initial "kick off" of the culture.

  My instructions say about 90° F for the first 24 hrs. On this forum I find something closer to room temperature. I think the forum is correct, I am a little shaky with the idea that I should start a culture at close to human body temperature- there are lots of nasties that like that for a home.

Should I follow this, or "cool it" to room temperature?

Sorry this is so long....

 

    Thanks

 

     slavicrye

pmccool's picture
pmccool

If so, check out this link about Lithuanian black rye bread.  I've made it and it is seriously good stuff.

Paul

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

And the ingredients seem to be correct. This then will be one of my baking goals, (along with a few others) and I will be looking forward to every step along the way.

Thank you, pmccool, for a great response. I don't know whether this was due to my mysterious description of the bread, or you ability to play "Concentration", and provide the shortest way to the correct answer.

Now I just need to decide on the activation of this culture from Ed Wood. It's for Polish Rye, but I will bet it will work as long as I can keep the culture alive and in good health.

At this point I want to start out at 72-76°F and work with it for 2 weeks and see what I get.

Of course I want to try other sourdoughs, and I do look forward to the occasional side path for more goodness...

 

  Any thoughts on the culture activation?

 

     Cheers!

 

   slavicrye

 

bboop's picture
bboop

I've been doing sourdough for a couple of months. I always leave mine at room temperature when it's fed or growing, else put it in the fridge. Feed it, leave it out for a few hours. With the a/c on these days in southern California, the room temp is about 72.  I do use yeast in addition in my final dough. Hope that helps.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

An established starter should reactivate at room 75°F temp within a few days.  A new starter, (made only from flour) benefits from the 90°F temp the first 24 hours.  

You could make a race and take notes...   Get yourself 3 equal containers preferably glass/see through and not too big.  

I propose you split the purchased starter if there is enough for one tablespoon in two jars or glasses.  In the 3rd jar, give rye flour and water.   

Remember to use non-chlorinated water and use separate spoons when stirring so as to not cross contaminate the cultures.  A simple cover of cut plastic bag (label)  working one glass at a time,  and loose rubber band will keep insects out and prevent drying.  

1)  Follow the directions on the Wood "Polish RYE"  starter to the "T"

2)  Do the same with the second "Polish RYE" starter sticking to room temp  75 - 77°F

3)  With a Tablespoon of Whole Rye flour follow Ed Wood's instructions.    

Now watch them all and see what happens.

 

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

A new Olympic event? Starter races!

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

  The Olympic committee declined because the next hosting city cannot possibly raise the funds for a seating expansion to the tune of 350,000 additional individual seats needed to host the anticipated spectators. Additionally, no large network had the equipment to process the "Instant Replay" footage. At least that is the buzz at the local coffee shop.

 

Mini, I think for my first starter I will take option #2. It seems to make the most sense. However, since we are dealing with critters, perhaps a stun gun and a bull whip should be close at hand....

I should mention that the loaves we used to buy were very similar to what I found when I followed the first link in this thread. Looking at the bread in the poly bag gave me no clues as to the contents when I first picked up a loaf. It looked medium in size, no patterns on the loaf, pan-baked, not a lot of rising above the sides, but the top was rounded.
 The texture and the taste set me on a journey. This is truly a fine bread. I searched again tonight for the bakery in Latvia (I believe I found their site once before a couple of years ago) but it seems to have vanished from existence.

The ingredients simple, but after reviewing the process and recipe if this isn't THE recipe I would be quite surprised. I has to be close. The flavors were complex and varied, but the ingredient list was short- truly a sign of a baker that knew their craft.

I had mentioned that I liked this toasted with giblet gravy- we would make the gravy by buying extra livers, cutting up all the giblets mixed with flour, marjoram, thyme, sage, black pepper- and frying that before adding to the stock form the turkey. My great-aunt's secret- several dashes of Worcestershire sauce- and my "secret"- basting the turkey with a butter cube, and adding a little stray "stuffing"- yep it's almost the 4th of July and I am now ready for roasted turkey dinner?!?

I think I will enjoy my journey immensely. Not like my first attempt- 25 years ago- where my starter overflowed a huge mixing bowl onto the heater in the hallway- that was fun to clean up! My recipe then was from the "Joy of Cooking"- for me there wasn't QUITE enough info on the business of making starters-

 

 

Cheers!

 

slavicrye

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

if you keep the starter cultures growing in small amounts.  I would also not use up all the starter you purchased... how much did you get?    I would save some for "back-up" just in case something happens to the one(s) you're "waking up."

A race makes the whole thing more interesting and also teaches you a good deal about starting up starters.  You've got some catching up to do!  :)    (We could also place some bets on which will be able to raise a loaf first!)  

You also get to take the losers to the compost as you celebrate "Christmas in July"     Happy Independence Day and Thanks for reminding me I get the day off tomorrow.    

Info on Starters?  Thank goodness there is the internet.

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

This was referring to the final rise with all the ingredients in a large bowl to help contain the conspiring inhabitants.

Their conspiracy worked, many escaped from the bowl.

Right now waiting on the "proofing box" to come up to temp. Going with Ed's advice after all, tomorrow I can lower the temperature. I guess I need to know whether of not it does work.

I "repurposed" an old Coleman cooler. I used a "brooding lamp" with a porcelain socket. I disassembled the socket wiring and stuffed it through the drain hole, then re-assembled the socket inside the cooler. I plugged that into a dimmer switch, installed a 25-watt incandescent bulb, and VOILA a dam heat box. It holds temperature very well once established, no need for a thermostat of any type.

It certainly is overkill compared to starter made 200 years ago. It would be the ultimate folly to FAIL.

I will raise this for two weeks, and then see what we can do with it.

We already make buttermilk einkorn pancakes and waffles, I want to build a culture that works the einkorn and use that in the recipes. I will use some of this starter to make a entirely new starter for the einkorn. Since einkorn is low in gluten, I thought that a culture that could raise a straight rye recipe could be adapted to einkorn. We shall see.

I have TONS of patience...except for -

Waiting on mail-order items to arrive

Getting started with this starter project

I just wish that box would heat up faster...

 

   having fun like I am supposed to

 

slavicrye

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is simple enough.  You could make one in about 5 days.  

#  4) experiment    put one tablespoon einkorn flour with two tablespoons water and put it int 90°F for the first day.   aka Wood    :)

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

Wood's recipe calls for 90°F for the first 24 hours; 3/4 cup rye flour, 3/4 cup water.

This was started in a quart jar, and it took off- it's about 24 hours later now, the culture has reached it's "crest", apparently made a volume of 24 ozs- 3/4 full in the canning jar- and is beginning to recede, although there are a lot of bubbles continuing to form.

In about an hour

Discard 50% of what's left after stirring down the foam

Add 50 gms rye flour

+ less than 50 gms water (maintain batter-like consistency)

continue with the same every 12 hours

until the "final colors" come true...

 

   Yeah I took a pic, maybe I can upload to Dropbox and load into my messages?

 

 

  Cheers!

 

slavicrye

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

Apparently Species 8472 came to an early peak in population; now another breed has taken over and the colony has raised the bar to just over the 24 oz mark, and climbing....

 

I'll be intervening at 8 pm...

 

slavicrye

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

though lacking in roughage.   :)

                                                            - compared to wood -

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

Dumped 1/2 down the drain. Sadness. This culture had developed a good aroma already. The acid was there (definitely didn't need litmus paper) alone with bready notes.

Fed with

50g malted rye flower

50g water (Earth2O) initially started with Earth2O.

Stirred well

Returned to the "proofer-cooler" with light bulb off to bring it back to 70°F slowly.

This will be repeated early in the morning!

 

slavicrye

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

how much is left?   In other words...  How much starter did you feed 50g rye flour and 50g water?

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

If it looks hungry, I can feed it more.

 

 

slavicrye

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

...And that freshly-fed start-up starter has doubled. Bubbles throughout. Is this a beast? It seems Ed has sent me the makings of something good.

I have no peel, no banneton, no baking stone...I should start looking, I think, because this culture seems to be very cooperative in that it is lively and producing acid.

We make our own pickles, fermented naturally, that is, and I do recognize two acids- lactic acid, and acetic by smell.

I am fully aware this may go chameleon on me and get weird before it matures into a good starter. But this starter form Ed certainly has "surprises" once it has been "ignited". At least I am not staring into tar pits or avoiding the smell, this is a lot more enjoyable than I thought it would be.

I will have a little difficulty going to sleep.

I will probably try a couple more of Ed's cultures. This one performed (at onset) far beyond what I had expected.

The water I use is Earth2O, find their website and read. There are a finite number of water sources in the continental US that actually are "clean water". OK. Our tap water here has no chlorine anything, no derivatives of chlorine, but we are below a defunct limestone quarry, and coffee from the tap is disappointing, to say the least. I theorized that the excess calcium and magnesium probably interfere with the yeast-flour process. It does make a marked difference with just a bread machine recipe.

What does my final product cost? The hope is that it will be less than a doctor visit. Staying healthy is just a lot cheaper in the long run.

 

Cheers to all.

 

slavicrye

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

 I have no idea whether the initial starter I purchased is still in this culture...

 This has been an adventure so far- I have sensed tannins, high acid content, but this culture seems to be simmering down. Most of the feedings have been 100 grams at 100%, with half volume discards, one discard when I smelled tannins was nearly all of it, perhaps 1 1/2 teaspoons remained in the jar, the tannins were all but gone with the next feeding, and the yeast aroma was strong, with some acid. I have increased the feedings to 150g every 12 hours.

 I am currently feeding it every 12 hours with water and malted rye flour at 100%. It smells yeasty, and there are pleasant flavors coming from it. I am just about to feed it again, after 12 hours it has not receded, there are lots of gas bubbles. When stirred I hear a lot of bubbles popping, it looks like baked bread structure-wise, mostly large, small and tiny bubbles, it definitely does not look like a dough. It resembles the appearance of baked bread! This culture has been maintained in the low 70's, it certainly likes to take it's time fermenting.

It has become consistent in it's behavior, and nearly boring in that there has been no change for the last 5 feedings.

Is this near ready to use? It has a "slow" rise at this point.

I don't want to go before the culture is ready to use, but since there are no "scratch and sniff" features on any baking forums, I'd like to have some input on determining when this starter is useable.

 

Thanks!!!

 

slavicrye

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

If it is rising and falling regularly, it should be able to raise a loaf of bread. I used my new starter at ten days old and it worked perfectly. My kitchen is also cool like yours. 

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

I will add here that hydration has been difficult...in that it is DIFFICULT to properly mix at the bottom of a canning jar, at 100% the mixture is STIFF. Twice during feeding I have gone to 133%, which is far easier to mix properly, and the culture is more vigorous.

The culture at 100% is firm enough to stick to the ceiling (no, I haven't "tested" that way) and stay there. After fermentation it still is quite "thick".

This feeding will be 133% and I will watch it closer for overall performance- peak time, aroma, vugginess.

Spell check doesn't like vugginess.      

Let's rock.

 

 

slavicrye

                                              

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

If you are using 100% hydration, your starter should not be as stiff as you describe. 100% hydration means equal amounts of flour and water by weight such as 25 g of water and 25 g of flour. I usually feed my stater 1:2:2. For example, I take 25 g of starter and feed it 50 g of water and 50 g of flour. Is this what you are doing?

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

It is now like old-fashioned "creamy" peanut butter. I will see how it likes the swimming conditions.

 

 

slavicrye

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

I can feel confident about mixing in the bottom of the jar.

I am using malted rye flour-at 100%. 1g each flour and water or 10,000 grams each, it's 100%.

The consistency at 100% is closest to the consistency of peanut butter-at first, when you open the jar-and pour off the oil- and scoop out the rest. It is nearly dry enough to break apart.

The malted rye flour behaves this way.

Even if I do two back-to-back refreshments at 133%, if I go to 100% again it will return to this state again after a couple of rounds.

Now if I were using a different flour, I would naturally expect similar consistencies. But since this is different, the "experiment" will continue.

If nothing else, the critters must be experiencing something similar to the "Gold's Gym of Leavening Agents".

I need to scan the kitchen for items for baking a loaf...I seem to be missing a stone, and a peel. I know the fermented loaf will have a different consistency, I am sure I cannot wad it up and literally toss it into the oven. But it is trying to make me believe that. I will seek out a stone and peel locally to get this bread baking underway.

 

 

Cheers!

 

slavicrye

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Slavicrye!

I'm a convert to dabrownman's No Muss No Fuss starter. He nicely explains the high temperature you've read about. It cuts down on waste and is a KILLER app! :)

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that this will set you on the right path if you haven't seen it already.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40918/no-muss-no-fuss-starter

Have fun!

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

By the way, Stan Ginsberg has an interesting take on bringing out more flavor from your rye. He scalds the flour in addition to the standard attention to fermentation. He was published by the Bread Baker's Guild of America and has a book coming out this fall.

I've never heard of anything so audacious and would love to hear about a more experience baker trying this at home to see if it works. You might be the guy if you really long for the extra flavor.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/46346/bbga-article-rye-chemistry

Have fun!

Murph

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

Big difference, this has tripled in size. Time for another feeding. I could actually stir the ingredients, and felt confident they were mixed well when I covered the jar. Is it not well known here that malted grains are used in brewing beer? I need to be careful that I don't end up brewing a loaf!

I suppose you also could modify the rye using straight brewing methods, just add heat and hold if at three steps in some fashion, making the flour ready to be fermented. Each step increases the fermentable sugars.

I have now used 1lb of malted rye flour as this starter culture has matured. Relatively speaking mature, that is.

It's just about time to do it again, and I will hydrate at 100% for the overnight run, this culture will be tired and shagged out by morning if I go 133%. This culture currently has bubbles bursting on top, and will soon go into decline. I guess I am currently urging it on toward maturation and stabilization.

We are a bread eating family, and I became concerned as natural processes and ingredients have been replaced with things that are not food. I was raised in a home that at least occasionally baked homemade bread, and I have found that even modern homemade bread does not smell or taste like it used to. So our search has brought us to sourdough, and what do you know, it's not as simple as some would like to make us believe, but still worth the effort in a home that can make bread vanish as if it never appeared in it!

What I would like to find now would be a "simple" sourdough bread formula.

 

Cheers!

 

slavicrye

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when regular rye is good enough?

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

By the time we got into town on our quest for flour, there was one store remaining open that carried organic flour.

I don't want to use "conventional" because most crops are sprayed with roundup prior to harvest. Roundup is registered as an antibiotic- that is, it has antimicrobial properties. There are also chemicals that the harvested grains are treated with in storage.

I have been known to brew beer in the past. When I saw the "sprouted" rye flour I knew the sprouting process is also known as "malting". The process converts starches to sugars. I just figured it should work.

I am new to sourdough, my first and last experience ended in frustration- I didn't have enough info 30 years ago to move forward. Family life was a little too busy to carry it further at that time.

I am rather intrigued by the bread/brewing relationship- in both cases we are relying on yeast to consume sugar so we at the top of the food chain can consume the by-product. Sprouting is a natural result form adding some water to whole grain. Pretty easy. But I think that at one time, the sprouted grain was not subsequently dried, but ground up, fermented, and baked, skipping the "flour" stage.

The process of "mashing" involves heating grains to various heat steps to bring out more fermentable sugar keeping the "mash" below 175°F; the "sugar water" is then drained, eventually being innoculated with a large charge of the appropriate yeast to create beer. I suppose the same process could be converted to bread making, but instead of discarding the spent grains, incorporating the entire mash into bread.

At this point, I guess what I am doing is "experimental". I didn't intend to go this direction when I started, but when I returned to that store I also found sprouted wheat and spelt flour. So it look like my first loaf will be wheat/rye/spelt. I like bread with serious flavor, and this may be a good opportunity to find what I like, then fine-tune it. I hope I don't bake a brick, and I shouldn't, there is enough info on TFL to avoid that, provided I absorb what I need.

So there you have it., Mini! You had to ask, right?  I am expecting different behavior of the sprouted flours, but maybe I am onto something. I remember a neighbor who once sold cereals to the military why a certain brand of flour had a "bitter" taste in it when used in a gravy-part of his answer was that the barley portion probably hadn't been "malted"- this statement has stuck in my mind for 25 years at least.

I do anticipate that the sprouted flours will perform differently- as in reach it's peak in fermentation more quickly?I am planning on watching the entire process carefully. There may be little difference from straight flours as far as the process is concerned, and the resulting bread may have little difference. But at least I will know.....and I do want to know! I do plan on reporting the results to the forum.

I have the feeling I will be starting a loaf today...

Cheers!!!

 

slavicrye

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in the search box on this site.  There are lots of great rye breads to be found that way.

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

It's nearly gone; sorry! No cancel that. It was the best bread we have ever eaten!!! I can hardly wait until I can really do this!

I found a recipe for whole wheat, spelt, and barley on this site. I got excited because I had all the ingredients, and started it.

My 100% rye starter mixed with the water addition like butter! I needed to use the handheld mixer to have any hope of combining the two. I was curious about the water, salt, and starter all in the same bowl, but followed the instructions until I got to the rest-raise-beat-flog-stretch-bend-fold? There are no instructions! So I did the best I could, did some slow-motion stretch and folds, about a half dozen times ever two hours at room temp for 12 hours. I put it outdoors to ferment overnight at 53° for 6 hours.


In the morning, back inside for 2 hours ambient, then another stretch and fold, and into the basket to raise for all it was by then worth. Didn't seem to do much as far as expanding is concerned.

Prepared oven. No stone. Used enameled BBQ grill plate. Preheated oven to 500°F. How to get loafette into oven? Aha. Flip cookie sheet. Dust with coarse flour. Place parchment on flour. Place loafette on parchment. 14" iron skillet with 1 pint boiling water on bottom rack in oven. Preheated roaster lid. 500° now for 30 minutes- open door, slide rack out, remove roaster lid, loafette and parchment slides onto griddle like it's on ball bearings; loafette in oven, spray loaf with water, spray inside oven, rain forest atmosphere, close door. Reduce heat to 450°.  After 5 minutes, open oven, remove roaster lid, remove skillet, close door.  'Bout an hour.

Waited 2 hours to slice.

Made an ugly loaf of bread that tasted like a $100 meal. Crust was crunchy and chewy, but not like jerky. Bottom was incinerated-charcoal. The taste of the rye, spelt and wheat (all sprouted flours) make this a candidate for #1 sandwich bread. Bread only tasted burned in the burned area- the burn taste did not pass into the loaf?

This loser on the front cover of the magazine is certain to get a stockpile of ingredients and necessities!!!

I would like it to rise more, I am uncertain about the process i should used to work the dough. It initially was sticky, stuck to everything. I gave it about 5 folds at a time over several hours, as it didn't seem to be into all that stretchin'. I did end up in the morning with a ball of dough that barely stuck to anything. Not even my hands.

The sour taste is difficult to describe, it is like 4 or 5 different acid tones, can't put a finger on any. The acid aroma was very good! Nothing overpowering; I do like the taste and texture. Somehow even the burned bottom did not seem to overwhelm the full taste of the bread.

I want this to rise more, if possible.

I suppose I can tend to issues like burning the bottom without any advice.

Starting an Einkorn-based starter tonight.

Sourdough from now on!

 

 

slavicrye

 








Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

A few tips:   My 100% rye starter mixed with the water addition like butter!  

Try slowly adding the water to the starter or add in some flour at the same time to thicken the water so the starter blends easier.

 whole wheat, spelt, and barley on this site.   

Can you link us?   There are so many recipes in TFL!   Whole wheat, Spelt and Barley will not give a lot of gluten to the bread dough so you might have to cut back on the Barley for more crumb volume or add something more gluten like, a gel or a Barley Roux.  

slavicrye's picture
slavicrye

Is here

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/overnight-whole-grain-sourdough-wheat-spelt-amp-rye

There was no mention of barley in the recipe, I don't know what I was thinking, I used rye. My apologies for the confusion.

Eager to dive in, I saw the recipe, realized I had the ingredients, the detail here is that all of my flours are "sprouted" (same as "malted" to me) and I was concerned that the starter may consume all of the food in the dough before I had completed the instructions. I went to work until I got to

"Mixing
Dissolve the starter into the water, and then add the salt. Mix the flours together well, and add to the water. Mix until everything is hydrated.

Dough development and the first rise
However you develop the dough, it’ll need to rise at room temperature for 8-10 hours. Use the wet finger test to see whether it’s fully risen in the morning."

The instructions were a little "gray" to me. Key word: "However". Stretch and fold? Knead? What?!? So I did some stretch and folds, and after 8-10 hours there seemed to be little change in the dough.  The dough didn't like to be stretched too much, as in it threatened to tear. So it went outside for 6 hours at about 53°
then I brought it in to warm to room temp (75°). The texture had improved in the dough, and it no longer smelled like wet cereal. It smelled like sourdough bread. Not "yeasty".
I suppose my actual biggest complaint is that the recipe doesn't make enough for us. Can this recipe be multiplied easily? I would think it would be easy to multiply since the ingredients are weighed, not "scooped".

My rye starter, the consistency of "all natural peanut butter", did not want to be mixed with the water, though water based. The hand mixer got most of it, and I guess the mixing and folding took care of that, the dough had no lumps in it at the beginning.

The finished loaf looked quite similar to

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13310/jmonkey039s-overnight-whole-grain-sourdough-wheat-spelt-amp-rye

I used a new single-edged razor to put one slash in the top. The crumb on this loaf was larger, there were more larger holes.

Of course, since I had the oven on "incinerate", the internal temp was at 212°F when I pulled it from the oven. It went to the cooling rack where it stayed for exactly 2 hours.

I will do this again, and turn down the oven to 425°F after 5 minutes. I found 2 little scraps remaining of the loaf.
It appears as if the initial oven temp was too hot 20 minutes at 500° - there was more expansion of the holes internally- a layer of holes decreasing in size nearing the crust.  It appears the biggest problem was my ham-fisted oven temp control.

I really don't want to change the ingredients. I love the bread. Better mixing of the starter would be nice (decrease frustration factor for the person mixing) and I would like to improve my handling of the dough. It certainly won't stretch like a white flour recipe-but maybe that's not a problem. I don't know. I do know that my "wild, random" stretch & folds, room temperature raise, rest overnight outdoors can be repeated because I believe the flavor was mainly improved with the time in-process before baking.

I am willing to find a wine chiller to maintain a cool rising zone, and a proofer to do higher temps and maintain them when needed. A Fibrament baking stone appears to be rather forgiving. Bannetons, oven peels, and a grain mill for certain. We live in a 2-story house, and all the action is upstairs. We have had a cooler than normal summer this year, some day's high temps are in the mid-60's, and the upper floor is around 75° pretty much all the time. When the sun makes an appearance, and the temp rises into the upper 80's, it is in the low 90's upstairs, so I will need to have a way to maintain a cool or warm environment as I nurture my favorite bugs. Turning on the oven at a high outdoor ambient drives us outdoors to the shade!

Cheers!

 

slavicrye

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I also prefer rye to barley any day of the week.  Chuck the rye in first so it can get a good sour reaction with the starter/water and then the other flours.  That little tweak might help with the stretching.