Beautiful Crust, Great Flavor, Terrible Crumb/No Oven Spring (Tartine)
I've recently delved into sourdough baking after feeling I'd gotten a good handle on yeast baking. I was getting incredible loaves with yeast. Using very little yeast and a long rise time I had these chewy, delicious works of bread that tasted so great...but alas I decided to dive into sourdough. The Tartine Bread book first caught my eye and so it's what I've been trying to learn with. My starter is doing well, I've baked about 5 times (doing the pairs as laid out in the book) and a one-off, "I don't want to waste my leaven!" loaf. The one off, "Oh I don't have time for this, I'll just throw some leaven together, add some flour, let it sit overnight and bake in the AM" turned out to be my best one yet. That was after letting my leaven sit for quite a long time, like 12+ hours. I didn't retard the overnight proof in the fridge so it had a bit of a sour flavor but not too strong.
I thought things were getting better with my normal Tartine Country Loaves (each time I learn something new) but my bake this morning has me feeling dismayed again. The attached picture is a pretty prime example of what I've been getting. A beautiful crust, incredible flavor but virtually no crumb or oven spring. The insides of the bread are gummy. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going wrong but I know the parts I struggle with the most are the pre-shape and final shape. I've gotten better at building the tension during my pre-shape but then in the final shape, when doing the Up, Right, Left, Down folds I lose all control, ha. The dough becomes so sticky at that point that I often have to redo the final shaping before I can place it in a banneton. I also live in Memphis, TN and the air is starting to become super humid. I wonder if I shouldn't decrease the amount of water a bit?
I've lurked through several of the other topics regarding Tartine loaves but nothing seems to really answer my questions. I'll lay out my typical work method:
Day 1
- Around 11PM or 12AM put together the leaven. Cover it and leave it to sit overnight in a cabinet on a low shelf. (Maybe I should do a higher shelf so it's getting a warmer rest?)
Day 2
- Around 8/9AM do a float test, if I need I'll pop it in the oven (which has a pilot light so it has a nice overall warmth) to get a little more active.
- When it passes the float test I start the other instructions, autolysing, folding, etc.
- (EDIT) Forgot to mention the bulk fermentation. After the autolyising & folding I do the "turns" every half hour for the first two hours then let it sit for the remainder of the bulk fermentation until...
- Around 3-3:30PM I'll do the pre-shape.
- Around 4PM I'll do the final shaping and place in my bannetons to retire in the fridge.
Day 3
The next day at 5AM I heat the oven for 15-20 minutes and proceed on the way with baking.
So, a couple of questions
- How important is the float test? I've read that I really ought to be able to judge this simply by smell/sight more than anything. It's frustrating that the leaven I let sit for 12+ hours rendered me a better loaf than anything Tartine thus far. With that leaven I could tell by sight/smell it was good for baking but 12+ hours for leaven seems crazy from everything I've read? Maybe it's storing at too cool a temperature?
- In the fridge proof: a) should I cover the loaf with anything? b) should I see a significant increase in size? I usually see none at a 12 hour fridge proof which may point to a less active leaven than necessary. My one-off loaf I left to sit overnight saw a decent size increase.
- Any tips on that final shaping and folding? I've watched videos of Chad doing all of this and see that he will dip his hand in flour during the pre-shape (and obviously being a master) nail the pre-shape in like 3 turns. I've read some folks suggest dipping hands in water or even lightly coating the work surface in water.
I have had similar results, and I came to the conclusion that it had over-fermented and broken down the gluten totally. The taste was very sour at that point, but still edible. That happened in room temp over-night fermenting of the dough, so I now do the bulk fermentation in the fridge after the autolysis.
Seeing how yours doesn't rise any, maybe that's not the case. I think the time you're leaving your leaven should be enough, so maybe it's not warm enough, or the sour dough starter isn't developed enough since the last feed? I judge by consistency and smell when I decide when the leaven is ready, FWIW. It quite warm here now, so it takes me 5-6 hours usually.
I would definitely cover the dough in the fridge in order to avoid foul off-tastes from the other stuff in there. I just use a plastic back and make sure it's tightly closed.
When it comes to folding, it depends on the problems you're facing. If it's too wet, I like using a dough scraper instead of my hands, which works quite well.
The flavor is really on point. There's barely any hint of sourness, it's mostly just this rich bread flavor. I just now discarded the rest of my unused leaven (save a bit to continue the starter) and it seemed it would've been perfect to bake with, ha. It didn't smell sour...the lower shelf must really be keeping it at a cooler temp than I realize.
I think when I bake again, especially before I get to the folding part, I should try to control the temp in the apartment a bit more and try to keep some of that humidity out. It just seems like the dough gets so extra sticky in that final phase. It even sticks to the dough scraper/bench knife.
I don't have the Tartine book but a picture is worth a thousand words. Your dough looks tremendously overproofed. Your timeline confirms that to me, esp when I see the temperatures in Memphis the last week. When you live in a variable temp climate, you have to make allowances for the current kitchen temp. A few degrees makes a world of difference to a microscopic culture.
I would ask several questions:
1.What is the temp of your kitchen-better yet-the dough temp-at the various stages?
2.How active is your levain? Does it double during a feeding? How is your levain kept and used? Is it active when you put it in a dough ? How "old" is your natural levain?
3. Ratio of levain to dough? ( I do not have this recipe)
4. Why are you leaving this dough sit so long? Isn't it risen after 2-5 hours at most?
Looking at the pic and reading your timeline lead me to believe that
-your levain is very weak- a few yeasts are being asked to raise a tremendous amt of dough and not able to before the enzymes digest the dough. It's like asking a 2 man crew to build the Empire State Bldg in a day.
-fermentation time much too long and prob at too warm a temp. 82F is optimal temp for yeast activity. Higher temp makes them hyperactive and they burn out faster. Cold makes them slow way down. Bakers in the tropics have to use special dough handling to make sure their doughs don't overproof too quickly.
- shaping not adequate ( which is nearly impossible on a dough so overproofed).
Those are my thoughts and I hope they are helpful. Don't depend on the recipe or the author's timeline-look at your dough, in your kitchen and let it tell youwhen it is ready. A baker develops a feel and recognizes the look of the dough in various stages. Keep baking and keep asking. Plus a picture really IS worth a thousand words.
Bake delicious fun!
Thanks in advance! I think you're right about my levain not being active enough when putting it in the dough. The Tartine recipe is a high hydration recipe, 70%.
There's 200 grams of levain at 20% of the recipe. Everything I've read suggests the slow proof in the fridge anywhere from 8-12 hours. If I left the loaf out at room temp I would definitely do something more like 2-5 hours.
The temperature lately has been fluctuating quite a bit. It cools down in the evening but then can get rather hot during the day. I try to keep all of the dough prepping & levain prepping in a cabinet to maintain a more consistent temp. I haven't measure the temperature in those cabinets or of the dough/levain itself.
When you say, "fermentation time much too long and prod at too warm a temp..." do you mean the bulk fermentation or the proof? The bulk fermentation is only approximately 4-5 hours total with 8-12 proof in the fridge.
We've had our windows open a good bit lately but perhaps it's time to turn on the AC & close the windows when I'm readying the levain/dough.
It's funny you say don't depend on the recipe or author's timeline because the one time I didn't is when I got my best loaf yet! :D
In case you were wondering, because the answers on this forum were not definitively stated: your leaven is not ready, your dough is badly underproofed, and this is exactly what that looks like. Not a remote chance of overproofing, this is classic Tartine under proofing. I proof my dough in rectangular bins, so I can see the amount of rising. If your dough hasn't risen but is mostly dense with a few big bubbles on top, then your bread will look exactly the same way: very dense with a few big bubbles. Sounds like you figured it out, but I just wanted to give you a definitive answer and leave nothing to question. BTW I've made about 15000-20000 loaves using this recipe, so I am very familiar with it and have made that under proofing mistake more than once.
I've given up following the timings in Tartine. It almost always overproofs and collapses, and it's so difficult to transfer a shaped, overproofed wet dough onto a peel or into a pot for baking. With a relatively small amount of fresh levain and high hydration I find I prefer to let the dough bulk ferment for a longer period of time and refrigerate it when it has doubled (or so). I'll then shape and proof it where I can keep an eye on it. Once the poke test tells me it's ready to bake, I bake it.
I have a batch of Tartine Kamut porridge bread on the go right now. I made the levain yesterday morning, then made the dough late in the afternoon. After about 5 hours of proofing on the counter (with stretching and folding), I put the bowl of dough in the basement for the night. This morning it had doubled beautifully so I popped it into the fridge for now; I'll get to the shaping and proofing later. But I definitely won't be proofing it for 10 - 12 hours, even in the fridge.
Of letting it grow larger during the bulk ferment. Does it produce more of a sour flavor doing that? From what little I currently know it seems it might, BUT it seems my levain's been pretty weak so that might be why I'm led to believe that.
I haven't noticed an increase in 'sour' when I do this. But what the longer bulk ferment does is give your starter critters more time to multiply and populate the dough. Once it has doubled or so, then you know that the yeast is active and can move on to the proof stage (where I like to keep an eye on it to see when it's ready). I'm not sure your levain is 'weak' (if it floats it should be able to rise dough just fine), but the shorter bulk ferment might not be giving it time to establish itself, especially when it is only 20% of the flour volume.
This is white bread and your looks like a 100% whole wheat one?
I see 3 things that could be wrong. First your levain may not be active enough. 2nd- you may not be letting the the dough grow in volume 30% during gluten development and bulk ferment or you aren't letting dough fully proof to 90% in the fridge or on the counter before baking.
My guess is your levain is very weak and it isn't able to get to the proofing at bulk and final like it should.
Happy SD baking
That crumb color is what happens when I screw it up. The one I've had success with did not have that same dull brown color. All signs are pointing to a weak levain. I can't wait to give this another go but I'll have to wait a few days until I can work this in my schedule properly.
I thought you had a fermentation fro 11PM-9AM the next day (10 hrs at room temp.), proofed until 4PM (7hrs at room temp), retarded until 5AM the next morning (13 hrs in refrig) and wondered why it flopped.
More info is needed on how you maintain your levain. I know there are many ways to do it but all the methods should result in a strong starter.
I stand by my other statements.
I think much of the problems go back to the starter. It sounds yeast weak. Want to know the starter maintenance. All the details.
or...you could be like me and realized after multiple failed loaves, that my fridge temp was too cold and it's way under proofed (proved). It kills me that they never give a fridge, temp-range. Also, looks like maybe during pre-shape, you didn't get rid of the big gas bubbles. Or, your levain build may not have been ready yet. Did it pass the float test?
As a fellow Memphian, I don't make any adjustments based on humidity and my bread is the same year round.
Just as an update I've started prepping everything again. My starter maintenance for those who've asked: I usually feed once a day, around 8-9AM, with about a tbsp or so of starter then add a 50/50 blend white/wheat (50g) and 50g of water. My starter doubles & falls in a predictable way. I've had it going for well over 3 weeks now.
I prepped my levain last night around 11:15 or so and as of 11:00AM today it didn't pass the float test and isn't quite ready. So that's 12 hours, I'm thinking my levain has been wrong all along and maybe somehow I tricked it into passing a float test by grabbing more aerated parts or something. Maybe I just rushed myself. At any rate, I'm giving this levain time to develop. I'm going to pay more careful attention to the bulk fermentation today as well.
Planning for a super early morning bake tomorrow and will post something new in the forums! I sincerely appreciate all the feedback/critiques/help!
"My starter doubles & falls in a predictable way."
After feeding, how long does it take to peak (doubling doesn't count.) That is; the starter rises with a slight dome and when it peaks, it reaches maximum height. Soon after, a dimple starts to form in the center as the wheat starter levels out and if a wheat starter, will start to fall down. (if left alone, it may rise again as there is still plenty of food for yeast. It may not rise as high as the first peak.) For good starter maintenance, feed after the peak. Doesn't have to be done all the time but occasionally it's a good idea. Do this now as it increases the yeast population.
I suspect the starter may be underfed as well... what is the temperature of the starter culture? Room temp?
for anyone else who this may happen to: I JUST discovered I was reading the Celsius side of my thermometer. So instead of 78° F water I was adding 78°C which is almost 180° F. Effectively killing off everything then asking it to rebuild. A very hard, stupid lesson learned. I'm trying again very soon with appropriate temps & will update the forum. Thanks for all being so darn patient with me & so helpful!
Intuitive test: anything cooler than body temp will feel slightly cool when you dip your finger in it.