The Fresh Loaf

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Mini oven rye ratio- help me with math and details

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

Mini oven rye ratio- help me with math and details

I dont have much time right now to explain more but i feel so thankful to this community for the amazing information. I am new with sourdough and baking in general. We are having health issues and a rye/spelt sourdough is what we need to start baking. I have been reading a lot. I am very bad with math. I have a baby scale that has lbs/oz/kg. Its not flat , its curved meant for a child. Can i still use it?   I tried weighing my pan full of water, as mini oven suggested.  The Pullman pan, 9x4x4, leaked so I put it in a plastic bag. It might've been 1.382kg for the dough weight.  I think with water it was 6.094lb with water so I divided by 2 for dough weight.  Then I tried to take that number and multiply by 3.5 & got 4.83700kg =4837g=10.664lb.  And then multiply 1.382kg by 4.16 =5.74912kg.   I got lost with it all, does it make any sense?  

Does someone have this size pan and I can copy the ratios?  Or help me simplify?  

 I have a bubbling rye starter I've fed every 12hrs for a couple days and I want to add it all togrther.  I keep finding larger recipes and I didnt know if I wanted to use a random glass or deep ceramic pan for extras. I got worried about the math.    Will my scale work? How much flour/starter/water and salt? I have to use my teaspoon measurer. I have a cup of starter I think. Is it about 3 cups flour?  2/3cup starter?  i need to see cups  estimates and kg or my scales units if possible.  

I see recipe for letting things sit without the salt overnight.  But Mini oven I think does it faster. I was told maybe let it sit in the covered bowl for a few hours until I try to move it into the pans to rise maybe overnight.    

I appreciate people bearing with me, I am a new mom functioning on little sleep , I just need the recipe and to try it out . I grinded all the flour and thought to add spelt at a smaller percentage in the beggining.

Goodnight

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

First, I may loose my connection at any moment and am threatened by a bush fire.  OK... now put the plastic bag into the pan and weigh the pan full with water.  dabrownman has an easier way to calculate so I hope he jumps in here too.  I think it's cool you are using a baby scale...  Should be perfect!

The ratio is based on the amount of starter used.  From the size of the pan, I would guess that using  170g starter would get you a decent loaf in that pan.

so   1/ 3.5/ 4.16

starter is 1 x 170g     water is 3.5 x 170g or 5g short of 600g   rye flour is 4.16 x 170g  or 707g   (you can mix about 500 rye with 200 spelt for a nice loaf too.)  The more rye in the mixture, the greater the chances of overproofing the dough with an overnight retardation.  If you have the time to watch it, feed the starter the night before and mix up the dough in the morning so you can watch it carefully. 

salt is 2% of (85 + 707) or 792  or 15.8g  (or a Tablespoon heavy table salt) 

Add up the weights and see how that compares to half the water weight.    :)

Mini

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

i wanted to try that to break up the time. your vote is definetly not/?

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I have been reading your posts for weeks and you sound so amazing and so helpful to so many people. I am so relieved that I finally reached out. 

I weighed it with the bag IN the pan, and no lid and it was 6.18lb=99oz=2.80kg so I think its 2800gram so half of that is 1400gr. So I am adding the gram numbers from your estimate 170+ 600 or 595g+707+15.8 & I need to use my calculater again but I think it goes over 1400 by maybe about 75?  The bag in the pan probably lets some air around so that reminds me  of leaving room around the loaf in the pan and maybe seeds.  I read that from you also mini oven. So  its been 8ish hours since i fed starter and I think thats at a potent time for it.  I can start soon and watch it more , mix salt in aftrr spelt sits 20mins and then mix dry rye and salt and  let sit for a few hours with remaining water? My salt is fine Real Salt sea salt , use less or more? I'm so close I can feel it. The adjustments sound tiny enough. a little less ofsomething?  My phone turns on and off and dont want to lose it.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

if I did it this way with no changes what might happen? More wet result? But still fine to eat? I guess i will have to see.  Somehow take out a little maybe flour and water, a tiny 75grams? And then theres my wet hands. I have spatula but no bowl scraper or bench scraper yet.  I probably wont get to it for a few hours anyway. So i will take the starter that sat from last night and use maybe a cup? I must remove it and weigh it so a cup estimate is what i wonder. And the water and flour- also maybe a few cups give or take?

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is to use....more math.  If your pan holds 2,800 g of water and you want to fill it half full of dough  then divide 2800 by 2 ti get 1400 g.  Now add Mini Ovens 1 +3.5 +4.16 =8.66  Now divide 1400 by 8.66 = 161.66 say 162 which is the starter amount and 567 is the water and the flour is 674 which add up to 1403 and is only of the 3 grams because of the rounding at the 161.66 to 162 in the beginning.

The dividing of the water weight in the an by 2 means that you expect that the dough will double, but I don't think that a bread like this will double in volume.  I usually estimate that this kind of bread will only rise 60%.  So I would divide your 2800 g by 1.6 instead of 2 to get 1750 g and then divide by Mini Oven's 8.66  to get 202 g of starter.for this rye bread.

Happy baking 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

it makes sense when i read it but my brain doesn't grasp it for long.  I will study it later in and cherish and save these ideas. So using 202g starter,  then are the other weights as you explained? 572 water? 674flour---divided up between rye and spelt maybe similar to minis suggestion? I cant do the math on it--but its almost the same so a little less of each? and still wondering about the salt? Realsalt fine sea salt.     or did you mean for me to figure out the recipe with the 202g starter?  I need help with the math. 

If mini oven weighs back in, I am so interested to try it both ways, I just want to be sure I write down my recipe correctly. 

Thank you

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

2800 g of water I would use 202 g of starter and then apply Mini's factors of 3.5 for water 3.5 times 202 g of starter  = 707 g of water and 4.16 times 202 = 840 g of rye flour or some combination of rye and spelt or some other grain.  If your starter is half eater and half flour it would have 101 g of flour in it and 840 g of rye for a total of 941 g of flour so the salt at 2% would be.,02 times 942 =18.84 g of salt. 

So Mini's hydration for her formula is a total 808 g of water divided by total 941 g of flour = 85.87% hydration.

Happy baking 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

When you show how mine had 101g  of flour, does this mean I am adding only this amount by weight from my jar? Not 202g? I am so confused. I thought I had a recipe but I dont understand how much starter and from where it needs to come.  Is the 202g whay happens aftrr adding other ingredients to the 101g? Is it really so complicated?  ??? I thought to use 202g as it is before any further math.

!!

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

This is so helpful.   I wrote it down. I think I will try 604.80rye and 235.20spelt , I tried to do a similar percent as mini ovens suggestion-28%?     

 I wonder how big of a deal it will be for my salt since not weighed. Probably no way to guess anymore than my self leveling measure spoon?   What weighing spoons do you all use? 

My starter was fed maybe more flour then water in the first week and since day 7 until now a week later I fed it a cup of each. I am feeding it now , I notice it says bake with 4 hrs after last feeding.   In morning I thought to just use it  , mix things up and get into pan before too long, maybe thats what it means by baking. I  am pushing forward anyway.  Any tips on how long to bake and when, I must re read all the things I have printed from you all.    Anything quick to tell me, I will try it.  I worry I wont be ready so thats why I ask,  rather tham more research. 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"...until now a week later I fed it a cup of each."

That would mean your starter is very wet; about 2/3 water and 1/3 flour.  Water weighs about twice as much as flour so you can bet you will need less water when mixing the recipe if using the wet starter.  Try cutting the water back to make up for the difference.  Subtract .07 kg from the recipe water and adding .35 kg more rye flour to the dough when mixing it up.  Shoot for the consistency of raw room temp hamburger meat for dough.   Taste for salt.  :)   

A cup of starter can vary so widely!  But if using cups, stir the starter down to pop bubbles before measuring volume.  I'd say 200g starter is under one cup.  Around 7 fl oz. guesstimate.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I wonder if my scale is an issue because-- i changed  the recipe to kg so water for example is .707 kg, but when I weighed some water it says only part of the number , .36kg so not three numbers.    My numbers for .605kg rye  so if my scale is only the first two numbers--?  And spelt .235kg , and starter is .202kg  , which I have written is to aim for around 7.13oz.  So, its more hard math for me to understand.  Is there a way to round off or use the oz feature  instead?  Would I look for .60kg or .61kg  for rye and .23kg or .24 kgfor spelt?  & starter .20kg?  Does that make sense?

Take care everyone,  I wish I didn't have so many questions  but i truely thank you 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

calibrating ...  707g should read .71kg      Your scales might be subtracting for diapers or clothes or ... see the manual.  You might want to play with some known weights and test the scales to see what it is doing.

.36 kg is the same as 360g      one kg = 1000g       

About the salt... stir it in well and taste the dough.  One level teaspoon of heavy table salt is about 5g.  Sea salt weighs less so you are more likely to come out with less salt than more.  Taste the dough and add as you please.

gerhard's picture
gerhard

but I think you may be taking it to extremes.  1 gram is about 1/30th of an ounce so I don't think there is any need for resolution past that.  To make life easier I would recommend rounding recipes to the nearest 5 gram for the larger % items in your recipe like flour and water, if it is a small recipe don't do that for salt.

Gerhard

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

i am not planning on using the spices 4Tablespoons from your recipe so ---is my salt still accurate -3 1/2 teaspoons ? i want to use flax seed freshly ground for omega oils ---if so how much to try and will the salt need to adjust?  

 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

i  have the manual from this site printed and it talks about if other seeds or oils are added the salt changes a lot. so maybe i will try without flax first because i really need to get baking. i dont want to start another topic because i still have questions here though i am having trouble focusing enough attention on it.  i feel desperate because i feel so unsure.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I didnt want to use volume but if it can help me make this bread for now,  good. If anyone wishes to tell me these grams in volume , at least I will try it. One or the other before I keep confusing myself.    :\

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

My determination  is still strong but I can see its going to be harder than I thought.  I am so busy with my family I cant focus enough on the bread , I pushed forward yesterday with all my printed stuff from Mini Ovens recipe.  I definitely had the hamburger ball up in the air but I dont think I folded it much forgetting about spelt in it. I wonder it all rye might be easier somehow. So many things i dont have time to know about it all. At some point I will find out if my scale is accurate,  it says nothing until I put at least .20kg.  In the pan it seemed like a lot, more than half. It was warmer than 72 I think. First in the covered bowl it swelled for 3 hrs(as recipe said? ) so i transfered it and in the pan after 2 hrs I wondered if it would overflow the top being so close I poked it with a forked and baked at 450 in preheated oven and panicked:). I was thinking about the lid not going on if I waited, among kitchen chaos,  but I wonder if waiting until it was right at the top is good and squishing thebuttered lid on. I was so curious I opened the oven after 15 minutes &forced back the lid to find the bridge trying to escape at a very alarming rate so I guess it was in its Rising phase I push the lid back on and called someone and forgot about the bread so it stayed in there at 450 for 40 minutes. Then i turned down to 350 &  for almost a few hours? waiting for 200 inside as I thought about the texture dissapointment and having to leave the kitchen.  I dont know if leaving get in the oven while waiting for my thermometer to read would help or not. It read 160. I took it out and froze some and put some hesitantly into fridge.  Today I think i will try cutting it more to toast.  I read I can maybe add thia to my starter? Starter is all rye though.  And I wonderhow to feed the starter so it's not as wet. I havehow much discarded starter in the refrigerator it's a lot to keep up with and I want to make something with it I have a recipe for noodles and the pizza crust. I have a French iron ceramic coated pot not a iron frying pan so I wonder if this can do the pizza crust. Or what all rye /little spelt recipes do people use for their discard?  Something with mainly just flour , nothing sweet? Little mini bread , muffins? I hope to be able to find an idea.   And I will get more flour grinded for the next try.  I dont know where else to start since i have no time to research.  If i try again, what might i change? Too many things? How does it sound? 

gerhard's picture
gerhard

start indicating any weight.  A scale like that is fine if you are weighing ingredients that are 25 kg or greater but if you are trying to weigh 1 kg you could be out 20% on your intended amount.  

After thinking about this maybe you are new to the metric system .2 kg = 200 grams   .02 kg = 20 grams  .002 kg = 2 grams

Gerhard

 

 At some point I will find out if my scale is accurate,  it says nothing until I put at least .20kg.

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I got the new scale , the KD 8000.   My other scale was definitely way off  and so was I with lack of sleep. I am going to stick with one place to write for now so I don't become confused.     The flour I last ground -is it too old now probably?-I don't remember when I did it exactly  probably when I wrote this more than 10 days ago.   Have to throw it out?

 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

Since I have  spelt in the recipe, I wonder what else to know. I follwed MiniOven rye info which I have printed . I guessed with the kneading and playing with the ball of dough. Does it need more kneading since I will use spelt?  I have to look at my paper again to know the step by step but also I read about seeing the dough and signs and signals its ready or not  for moving forward.    I will leave one section here at a time. 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

Would that change a lot? Can I  aim for 1/2 spelt?  

 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

With letting the dough sit covered in a bowl with lid , is that when to do the small glass test?   And with after putting it into the pullman pan?     One time is short to ferment? & the second time is to proof /rise? Are both 85%?   

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

Of getting it to bake right? Or is the kneading , which I think I may not know exactly how, also extremely crucial?   with this recipe can I guess how long to let it sit in the bowl amd pan to be watching?  also temperature- do I turn on the heat? I think it difficult to make it around 72F , here it gets warmer aftrr being on for a few hours. Can I go by a cheap oven thermomter the kind attached to a pole?  Should I get another one?      I am trying to cover all exits all at once but I know it may be a lot  more to keep trying. I really need to suceed.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

If you don't get the gluten developed then the bread won't rise right if you don't ferment and proof the bread right it won't taste good or spring and bloom in the oven.  When you get everything right then the bread is as god as it can be.

Normal room temperatures of 68-74 F are fine for making bread.  The lower the temperature the slower things happen for fermenting and proof but I make bread in my kitchen between 64 F in the winter and 86 F in the summer.  Proofing might take 5 hours in the winter or even more but only 1 hours in the sunmer

I have and oven thermometer to check the temperature of the oven.  Turnes out my ven is 25 F lower that hat it says it is.  I also have an instant read thermometer to check the internal temperature of the bread when it is baked to make sure it is done..

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

if i use my probe to try and check the bread , am i doing that towards the end.  i realize my oven temp might be off. is there any techinques to avoid problems.    i have so many questions i think i might need to move my conversation to the troubleshooting forum. how about starting this bread at 450f and immediately turning the oven down?

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

fine for that too.  Every recipe is different when it comes to Bulk Ferment - some want 30% others want it to triple.  I use it for final proofing which depend on the kind of bread - about 90% for white bread and 80% - 85% for whole grain breads.  When ever I have new basket I do it to know for sure what it should look like when proofed correctly

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

i think we are talking about when to use the glass test. i wasnt going to use a basket.   i think bulk ferment is the first time i mix it up with the starter and cover the bowl for a few hours.   is that right? and when i do this-how am i going by what i see vs time? Mini had a certain time written.     and also---i read about you doing this part of the recipe in the fridge overnight. i want to save time. and i know there are also some benefits to having it sit together longer, but also maybe a problem with the cold.  so i am seeking information about if i can try it this way.

the final proofing--when i put it in the pullman pan? then take the small dough ball in the glass so i can watch it as i watch the pan?     also---i dont have showercap to go over my pan yet. is there a subsitute besides what i did last time using a proppped up plastic bag with a chopstick that made a mess. i kknow my recipe was not accurate so it was too much dough. and it is possible i wont have the top of the pan touch the top so i was thinking to try my plastic bowl cover set on top of it  for now .

 

i realize this is going to be not in order for people since i am going backward into the conversation to read but i cant keep track of my questions as well if i start somewhere else.

 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

How should I feed my starter if I dont know what percent it is now? I thickened it a little before finally putting it into the fridge.I also double fed it before also, I think I read that was a good idea and I tried making noodles.

So now i think its 1/4 , how much to feed it and what % will it be at? 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and the water is some percent of the flour say 70%.  If you want to build a starter that 70% hydration you have to know how much starter you want to build.  Lets say you want to build 100 g of starter at 70% hydration using 10 g of seed, or mother starter of unknown hydration.  Since 10 g of the 100 g total is seed, that leaves you with 90 g of flour and water,  if you divide the 90 g by the total flour and water percent 170 % (1.7) 100% for flour and 70% for water you get 90/1.7 = 53 g of flour and 90-53 = 37 g of water. 10 starter + 53 g of flour and 37 g of water = 100 g total starter at 70% hydration.

You do the same thing when determining the flour and water in a loaf of bread.  If you want to make a 1000 g loaf of bread using 10% pre-fermented flour for the levain at 70% total hydration  you know  the total flour and water is 1000/1.7= 588 g of flour and 1000-588= 412 g of water total.  Since you want 10% of the flour in the levain it would have to be 59 g of the 588 g of total flour and the water would be 41 g in the levain of the total 412 g.  making the levain 100 g at 70% hydration and dough flour 588-59 in the levain = 529 g f dough flour and the dough water is 412-41 = 371 g  

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

is another thing i am wondering about. this information sounds really good but i am not understanding it completely, maybe if i print it and stare at it for a while it will make a little sense.  its all the numbers that are hard for me. 

i dug up your No Mess No Fuss info and i want to do this.  i will explain my situation more.i want to make the bread already and i took my starter out of the fridge.  i took all out but about 1/4cup and put this discard in the fridge. then i fed it as Mini helped me---1/4cup starter with 1/4cup water and 1/2 starter. i did this so far for 2 nights and 2 mornings around 10pm.  the book i have says this is the way to get the starter ready for baking and that it should be about ready now i think. 

after i started feeding i wanted to feed by weight. so i want to know how much to use.  i tried weighing my 1/4cup. it was maybe around 130g.    so is it 130g water to feed it and also 130g flour --because flour is lighter?  i think when i weighed it by volume this was how it seemed so i made it all accurate that way.     perhaps i remember wrong.  

so the No Mess No Fuss, i saw you keep 120g for 16 weeks and can use it 1x a week.  can i now convert my starter to be this way. i have to look at your instructions again and bring them home but again i have many questions.   i think i can feed mine more often and get it more active so when i refridgerate it  it becomes super strong. thats the idea i think.     i want to know how i can do this now while i have mine out of the fridge.    my goal is to eventually have 4 jars like this and try to bake about 4 at a time.  for now-- should i be able to just use mine as it is to try this recipe? 

  if i want to use it in a few days so is there no other way but to keep feeding it on the counter? because it is not strong enough yet to use striaght from the fridge/ i dont want to put it back in there because  of course i take it out and am feeding it so much.  i think Mini said something about how rye prefers the fridge because it will need more food more often.   i am afraid to put it in there again after all this effort so thats why i want to get it right. 

what if i take the discard when i feed it next and feed that to make another jar-/?  This works?  

-this is what i want to do the No Mess No Fuss way.    As soon as i  understand what exactly that is and how i can change my starter schedule to it.

when i fed mine i am pretty sure it doubled quickly.    i  really want to keep this simple.

 

 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

i am still trying to understand here.  so since i want 202g starter ,  how much seed can i take? And then how much flour and water would i add to make it a 202g starter?    all this assumes i can take my seed from the fridge right? though right now i have it on the counter.  i keep repeating because i dont know if people will read thru it all.

can i take this seed from my jar that is currently on the counter? that was my original plan before i see how much i am discarding. i want to put this thing in the fridge!Quick!

or have i built enough to use the 202g right from the jar -instead of putting it in the fridge as i did already?   though i still want to know the math for what to do next time and if i can use some right from the fridge for the build. i think the build still takes some time but will be less waste/

 

 

Are you saying that the recipe above i want to try which you helped me with the math of needs to be adjusted because of my starter being unknown hydration being?

I am wondering this as  i read these details.   i am unsure what hydration is supposed to be my goal. all too much math for me and is making me want to understand because i worry something will go wrong if i dont have all the info.

 i  see you have created a way to avoid this by only removing a small amount of seed and then adding to that.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

perhaps try a different recipe, one made and tried using half spelt, half rye.  There are many!  

I use probe thermometers often.  Make sure the thermometer tip is in the middle of the dough or loaf.

Don't over think the recipe, it can still be used for half spelt7rye.  Might want to hold back on some of the water while mixing just to be sure. Don't stress out over the rye starter feeding.  Is 1/4  a forth a cup?  if so, add another 1/4 cup water and 2 x 1/4 in flour or (half a cup flour) and let it ferment.   

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

It was 1 cup in the fridge. I poured half into another jar and fed that 1/2 cup starter 1/2 cup water and 1 cup flour.  The 4oz threw off my thinking , its not the 1/4cup but its double that.    Then I fed the refrigerator one the same and then realized I am supposed to keep it out of the fridge. Now I have two?  Was I supposed to only keep the refrigerator one out and not discard any, just feed it and then take out the starter from it when it bubbles up to bake with ?  Maybe I should have fed it and let it warm up before doing anything. 

Also how can i feed it by weight? 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I am so excited though at the same time as stressed . I would've probably forgot again to feed the starter if you hadn't commented MiniOven. I think I am going to feed it the flour I aalready have ground but it sat  for 2 weeks in my shelfs. So again I think maybe grind fresh in the morning? Dont use this flour?    I guess if I bought it from a store ground and it was aged 1 week I would want to use it around a week. It smells fine I think.   Maybe just use it? And try baking tommorow!   I think people said they were keeping it in the fridge or freezer was it after grinding?  What would you do Mini?   I stirred my starter as often as possible still after the fridgerator. And after I feed it I let it sit an hour to eat its food before going back in the fridge. But if I use it, let it stay out. Thats what I really want to do--bake bread.  I guess as long as I have your recipe instructions by my side I will keep going.  Trying to time it so I can watch it more felt complicated.  

 

Why does it sit in the bowl only 2 hrs? Or was it 4? Is that a time to go by or am I looking for something?  Is that when I do the test with a straight sided little glass to see if it rises so much?   Or is that test as I put it into the pan I will keep a tiny ball in my cup? To look for 85%?  Do I use a ruler amd make marks? Double I can mark by height and then more than half that like 75% I think I can mark on my cup but how to find 85% ? Amd how to know what time approximently it will be after going in the pan? Once it is high in the pan just keep looking at my little ball?  

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

Since it has spelt. I will first try this recipe. Do I slash it lightly ?   anything special to change about the recipe since it has spelt, how much kneading-more right? Stretch it out and push back together going around? For longer than 100% rye? If it sticks to my hands keep trying to make it not? 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

minioven yours was not vvery long of a total time---can you say why? If its colder and its not rising keep waiting? 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

and in the oven? You dont leave the thermometor in it ?   I didnt understand your recipe with oven instructions with convection so turn it up to 450F and then immediately turn it down 350F? Or 400? Sorry because I can not remember . I think I read dabrownman said about rotation in the oven a lot but not sure if it applies. I can do this:)

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

And using dry hands or --now I have a bench scraper and bowl scraper --so with the spelt do I want to handel it more or dont worry about playing with it after I get a ball. How long? Its so much more sense to see in person.  I can not view videos but maybe later if there is a link. I wonder how much it may or may not matter this mixing it up part.  

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

and it feels difficult to read jumping all around so i wanted to put something here at the bottom. some questions i asked are more important than others. i dont feel ready to try making bread because it seems i dont know enough but i think i may end up trying. it is very difficult for me to use the internet and time constriants. i regret posting here because it looks too scrambled jumping around and hard to see new content.  i am overthinking because it is all so new to me and so much depends on me doing it right.   

i grinded the flour. i think i activated the starter (that the discard saving is driving me crazy!) and ---what else?! i have the math and scale for my recipe. i think i changed the hydration of my starter to be more suitable. 

what i might need--

temperature plan for the oven part while i buy a new thermometor.. 

a starter plan to change mine to No Mess No Fuss

recipe math advice for the hydration of my starter fitting into the recipe as explained above next to dabrownmans words

to know if i need to slash and dock/poke with toothpick since mine is rye and spelt

how long i might knead with a streching fold going around in circles- how this will impact gluten develpment if i do it wrong

what else i might need to know-please tell me

and last---to be ready to try again and again and again

this is the start of a lifelong bread making journey for me. this information is like gold to me , big thank yous to all

 

 

 

 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

i am being direct about that but i want to be sure to get the info i need, i spent a few hours writing it here at the library. so its so important to me.  i know everyone spent a lifetime learning what they know. you are all so inspiring to me.

 

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

I have been reading and i wonder if i am supposed to use the starter i have on my counter as what i add to the flour and water OR if i am to discard it and only use a tiny amount---how much again---(so many things to remember)--and then add THAT to the flour and water.  if i need 202g starter-- is it straight from my jar after 8-12 hours of feeding or what is it at this point?

ryebreadasap's picture
ryebreadasap

can i use one? i saw a video with the mixing and shaping and it made it look so much easier.  the poster put everything striaght into the pans for 12hrs.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

you can make some rye bread.  Rye bread is the easiest of all breads to make.  It is basically a mix and dump into the pan let proof and bake.

1 put water in your pan and weigh it in grams.  Divide the water amount by 1.4.  This means you expect the dough to rise 40% to fill the pan during proofing.  IF the water weighed 2200 g then 1571 g of dough will fill the pan.

2 Now divide 1571 by 1.85 (85% hydration) =849 g.  That is how much flour goes in the recipe.  1571 - 849 = 722 g of water water goes in for 85% hydration.

3.  IF you want to use 25% spelt then the flour would be 849*.25 = 212 g of spelt and 849 - 212 = 637 g of rye

4. Now you have to decide how much prefermented flour to use for the levain.  i would use 30%  So .3 * 849 = 254 g of flour in the levain at 100% hydration would be an equal amount of water or 254 g.  I would make this all rye flour. 

5.Deducting the levain flour and levain water gives you the dough flour and water.  So deducting the 254 g of levain rye from the total rye of 647 gives you 393 g of rye for dough flour to go with the 212 g of spelt.  The dough water wouild be 722 - 254 = 468 g 

6 now we need to work on your levain.  You have been all over the place with the starter being way to wet using equal volumes of water and flour instead of equal weights like you should have been ding.  So we are going to fix that for the levain.  Take 50 g or your starter and feed it 50 g each of rye flour and water.  4 hours later feed it 75 g each of rye flour and water and 4 hour later feed it 104 g each of flour and water.  When it doubles it is ready to use.  This gives you a levain of 508 g that has 30% prefermented flour in it at 100% hydration.  This assumes there was 25 g of flour and water in your initial 50 g seed amount

7 Since you have 849 g of rye flour you need 849 g * .02 (2%) = 17 g of salt.  Now you have a complete recipe without a method.  You can add 4% (849*.04) = 34 g of bread spices too.  I like half to be caraway and the other half equal amounts of fennel, anise and coriander.

8. Once the levain is made, it takes a day you can retard it till the next morning - bake day begins.  Let the levain warm up on the counter for an hour.  Mix the dough water and flours with the salt and the levain by hand or in a mixer with a dough hook until all the ingredients are incorporated.  Let rest 1/2 hour.  

9. Grease and flour the bread pan well including the top if using a pullman.  Plop the dough into the pan, making sure to get it, the paste into the corners making sure to dome the top of the loaf if not using a pullman pan. Let rise until the dough is 1" above the rim of the pan if not a pull man or if a pullman fills the pan about 85%.  If pull man put the lid on

10. make sure the oven is heated to 400 F.  Bake for a half an hour and then turn the oven down to 350 F and bake another half hour and then turn the oven down to 300 F and bake until the middle reads 202 F.  Take the bread out of the pan and bake right on the rack for another 5 minutes. - All done

Now all you have to do is weigh the water in your pan and get started,

Happy rye SD baking 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Knowing that we can count on you every step of the baking is reassuring. Your kind support and unselfish sharing is what makes you so special! Thank you!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

depending on how old we are, we can forget how foreign it was at one time to all of us.  I'm sure a lot of folks could benefit from the post above though.  It takes a lot of mystery out of the math in bread baking and makes it easy to understand.  You are too kind Yippee!  I felt kind of bad about being so late to post the above. I was out of town the first 3 days of the week and then had some stuff done on my eyes so I couldn't see very well the past 2 days.

My wish is to make bread baking easy and fun for the new and old alike.  Now I have to bake Lucy's rye / spelt bread above, add some re-hydrated minced dried onions to the levain and maybe some walnuts in the dough too:-)  500 breads down and only 9,500 more to go.... 

Happy baking Yippee

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

increase in volume or doubling and one at roughy 25%

 

Here is two somewhere in between