The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Learning to hate Tartine breads

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Learning to hate Tartine breads

What you see above are the results of my loaf getting stuck in the bottom of my dutch oven! I am not a happy camper!

To start at the beginning, I was making Tartine 3's Buckwheat Loaf with toasted groats and crème fraîche. I followed the Tartine method aside from developing the levain using DBM's rule of 7 to get 150 grams of levain. I then followed DulceBHbc's method of 24 hour bulk fermenting and 24 hour proofing in the refrigerator after 3 hours of stretch and folds at room temperature. I am determined to get great oven spring and those big holes if it kills me! Anyhow, the dough looked wonderful after the bulk ferment. Full of gas and bubbles. I did a preshape, 30 minute rest and then shaped it into my proofing baskets seam side down (forgot to put it seam side up).

I then put it back in the fridge. I took at peek at it after about 12 hours and thought it was ready to bake but decided to stick to my plan since I have no idea if it is under proofed, over proofed or ready when I refrigerate things. I should have taken a bit and put it in a straight sided jar to rise along side but I didn't. So the next morning, this is what it looked like:

Probably over proofed!  I flipped it out on to the counter where it held its shape nicely. Into the DO it went and into the oven at 500F. I had planned to score it but as usual, I forgot. I baked them as usual where I drop the temp after 20 minutes to 450f, then the lid comes off 20 minutes later and then back till dark, usually another 20 minutes or so.

Then, disaster struck. I couldn't get it out of the DO! I tried banging the pot upside down, left it upside down for a few seconds hoping the steam would dislodge it but no luck, I finally attacked it with a wooden spoon which I broke. You can see the results of my attack here:

 

I was able to pry the second loaf loose with only a couple of holes in the loaf, one caused by another wooden spoon and one from a bit getting stuck in the DO. And wouldn't you know that a half hour or so later, the bottom stuck part of both loaves came loose by themselves. So lesson to me, if it sticks, leave it alone till it cools then try loosening it.

This is what the other loaf looks like:

Of course, there was no oven spring since the loaf was definitely over proofed. I forgot to get a crumb shot since I sliced it all up and froze it. The crumb actually wasn't all that bad. No huge holes but typical of what I have been getting for whole grain breads from Tartine. The taste was quite good.

I am going to try this again but try leaving it either on the counter at room temp till it is ready to bake or put it back in the fridge for a lesser time. I need to remember to try that little straight side glass trick.

I am starting to hate the Tartine 3 book. I had such success with FWSY and it is bemusing to me that I am not getting the results I want with Tartine!

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

Try not to take it too hard. We've all been there and destroyed a loaf or two (I've actually destroyed hundreds during my time in various bakeries). But I have to ask, if you were happy with your bread from FWSY, why are you so intent on making Tartine bread? It seems like it's been nothing but an exercise in frustration for you.

Trevor

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

the wall. I like the ingredients in the recipes from Tartine and like to try new things. The pictures in the book look amazing and I wanted to recreate those loaves. Now, it has become a war that I am determined to win. Yes, I am an A type personality that doesn't like to admit defeat. ;-)

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

I'm the same. It's all about the challenge. And those Tartine pictures are beautiful.

But then, look who's baking those loaves.

It takes time to figure out a new recipe and a new method. I can assure you, even Chad Robertson has ruined a few loaves during his day. 

And since determination usually wins out in the long run, I have little doubt that you'll win this war.

Cheers!

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne

When I make bread like this, I cut 2 strips of Parchment Paper (about 8 inches wide).  I place these strips in the bowl that I will be using to proofing my dough.  I then place the shaped dough into the bowl for proofing.  These two strips of parchment paper will act as a cradle so that I can transfer the dough into the Dutch Oven with out deflating my dough.  Another benefit of using the parchment cradle is that the dough does not stick to the Dutch oven because the parchment paper is between the dough and the Dutch oven.  The paper will darken a bit during the bake.  I hope that this helps.

 

Dwayne

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I have used it in the past for both proofing and baking in the DO. Thanks for reminding me of it. 

BGM's picture
BGM

Only way to go!

artistta's picture
artistta

How long are you preheating your oven? I think Tartine 3 greatly underestimates how long the oven needs to preheat. I've had my loaves stick when my dutch oven wasn't hot enough. I make sure to have them in a 500 - 550 F oven for at least 30-40 minutes once the oven has preheated with the dutch oven it in. Making for a total pre-heat time of close to an hour. Even over fermented/proofed breads can still get an okay oven spring when the dutch oven is extremely hot. 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

for an hour at 500f. I usually do 40 to 45 minutes but time got away on me this morning. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Yeah, I like the combinations in Tartine 3, but I'm thinking of following the FWSY method and hydration levels and the Tartine combinations. My FWSY breads generally turn out better than my Tartine breads too. I haven't had one stick that badly (yet; touch wood). Maybe a quick spray on the DO with some pan spray? Of course, it would smoke during the pre-heat, I suppose.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

to follow the FWSY method and hydration with the Tartine ingredients. Would you use the Forkish amounts too as Forkish's bakers percentages include the levain while Robertson doesn't?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Not sure, but I'm leaning towards using Forkish's amounts and formula for starter. Part of the difficulty with the Tartine breads seems to be coming from the length of time required for the ferment and proof, and that is required because of the relatively small amount of starter used. Do you agree, or am I out to lunch?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

because his kitchen is at 80 where mine is at 70-72. I just was comparing recipes in both books and what we are thinking isn't that easy. Forkish uses a lot of white flour where Robertson uses a lot of high extraction flour which is a lot heavier plus the percentages for the levain are different as well.

Using bakers percentages don't even match up either because Forkish includes all the flour and water in the dough and levain where Robertson only includes the dough water and flour in his, not the levain. And he adds wheat germ to all of his recipes.

I am sure I could take one of Forkish's Pain de Campagne or his Field blend #2 and sub differlent types of flours in. The addition of instant yeast would help too. 

Something to ponder for sure. I am not quite ready to give up though. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

like two step froward and 1 back.  First ypur pictures of before and after show that your dough is way, wayover proofed.  Instead of 85% you are easily at 125% and maybe more.  It was ptrobablyu read at 12 hpurs or even earlier.I used to do the same thing so it cone=mes with experience.  2nd when baking in a DO, I unmold onto parchment on a peel  The parchment goes in the DO with the dough - viola nothing ever sticks to that.  Proofing seam side down will let you toss it in without scoring so a bit over proof wont kill it.   Yoiu can also PAM spray the bottom of the DO so it doesnlt stick but that can cause butning too. 

That still doesn't mean that it won't burn on the bottom so 5 min after the lid come =s off then the bread comes out of the DO.  The crust will have set enough.  If you don't have a stone just finish baking it directly on the rack.  If you had a combo CI cooker you wouid take off the lid, leave it in the oven and put the bottom part of the cooker on top of it to finish baking - much less burning of the bottom then.  

I thinking, if it would't have stuck, even though over proofed, it still would have been pretty darn good crumb wise and certainly tasty.  I've started preheating to 450 F and baking at 425 F when using a DO and then turning the fan on when the lid comes off.   I get a better crust that way, thin yet crispy and still well browned - and the spring doesn't suffer at all.

I'm thinking next time you will just nail it ......and never look back!  We have all been there.  The thing to remember is that you don't have to be speedy when making bread but you do have to do things deliberately in the right order in the right way.  Get the dough in the basket seam side down.  Make sure to rice flour the basket  no AP flour needed.  No hurry to get it in the hot pot after un-molding.  Just slide it off the peel by holding one end of the parchment and letting it gently drop into the pot by pulling back the peel.  I always used to rush things thinking speed was important but found out the hard way it isn't at all.

I still prefer cloches to a DO any day.  They are just so much easier and work just as well.

You are almost there - next time is the charm - you are out f holes to fall into but the rest of us fell into the same ones,  It is part of paying your baking dues to those bread gods:-)  It helps tp have an apprentice to kick too:-)

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

they were just stuck! I thought they were burnt but when it finally came loose, no black areas. This is only the second time that I had a loaf get stuck. The other time, a wooden Spoon popped it right out.

And yes, I do rush when taking the loaf out of the basket. I drop it in the DO by hand. I need to start using parchment paper as my helper. It really is a miracle I haven't burned myself yet.

I have enough groats to do one more loaf. I think the plan will be to proceed as before with the levain and the 24 hour bulk fermentation but use the straight sided glass trick for proofing and use parchment paper under the loaf in the DO.

Will keep you updated. And thank you to everyone for all the feedback.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I've had better luck with the seed and porridge bread recipes in Tartine 3. The doughs are a little more substantial. Made the Sunflower and Flax loaf and the Oat Porridge (I used walnuts in it) for the little bread shop last week. No crumb pictures as customers took them away!

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I can only wish for my loaves to look like that. I am working my way (skipping a few) through the book so hopefully, I will have something figured out by the time I get to those. I am pretty sure it is my timing that is off. I have no issue with handling the dough as I really don't know any better since FWSY and no knead breads all use pretty high hydration. The only bread I made before that was in a bread machine and it took me about 5 to 7 loaves to get that right since I was scaling from a 1.5 pound loaf to 2 pounds and using multigrain flour. 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I like both, Forkish and Tartine breads, and I had my share of mishaps at first, too (a Forkish bread stuck in the banneton, and tore when I tried to get it out).

As the others say, a parchment paper sling is really the easiest way to transfer your bread into the pot, no burnt fingers, no sticking loaf. Like DBM, I was wondering about your long proofing time, I, also, would assume it was overproofed. t

But I wouldn't give up, once you master the technique the breads are so worth it.

Karin

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I am too stubborn for that. This link is where I got the idea of fermenting and proofing for 24 hours each. I figured that if it worked for him/her, that it might work for me.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

make sure the dough falling into the hot pot has a nice layer of flour on it to prevent sticking between the pot and the loaf.  

Another thing, when it sticks, just leave it upside down to cool completely.  After the bread gel has set up, the loaf will hold together better when the wooden spoon wedges down the side.  

Bread sticking is like when someone gives you a present with too much tape holding it together.  Think of it as a test of patience.    I know, hard to wait.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

is my usual sticking inhibitor. I also end up with a bit of toasted cornmeal that I collect in a jar for when I want to include it in a bake. 

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

I'm also a fan of using cornmeal in my combo cooker. While parchment paper is a surer bet to prevent sticking, cornmeal does the job just fine in most cases. And I confess -- I like the subtle flavor and "tooth" that a small amount of cornmeal adds to the bottom crust.

Cheers!

Trevor

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

cornmeal in the cupboard. I should try one loaf with parchment paper and one loaf with cornmeal.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

longest time I put some in every bread I baked because it tasted so wonderful. Putting Arjon's toasted ones in the bread would be best as part of a Toady -properly named after another fresh loafian Toad.de b who was the inspiration for those wonderful flavor enhancers!

HansB's picture
HansB

You mentioned that you followed the Tartine steps except for a couple of other methods. Have you tried the Tartine exactly as written?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

and my bread did not get the crumb or rise that i wanted. I figured out eventually that it was a temperature issue. My house just isn't warm enough. I have finally worked out a method that steal bits of ideas from a number of techniques and gets me the oven spring and crumb that I want for the most part. 

HansB's picture
HansB

Sorry, I didn't realize this was an old thread! I don't know why it showed up in the "Recent Comments" section.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

It showed up cause I moved the pictures from where they were being hosted because that server is being  shut down to s new place. I didn't realize that it would bump the thrrad into recent posts.