"Dead" Levain?
Greetings! I'm a relatively new to sourdough bread baking and brand new to this site (I love it).
I'm making a levain based on the method from Ken Forkish in Flour Water Salt Yeast (folks here seem to be familiar with this), so it's been 100% hydration levain with KA Whole Wheat fed once per day and retaining only about 1/4 - 1/3 before each feed.
At the end of Day 2, the levain had grown tremendously in size. On Day 3, I had run out of KA Whole Wheat flour, and so fed with about 85% KA Whole Wheat and 15% KA AP. The first notable effect, not surprisingly, is that the use of AP caused the levain to be much wetter than it had been the first two days. Later in the day, I noticed that the levain had not risen to the level it had the previous day. As my wife had been keeping the door open, I thought maybe the levain was getting too cold, so I set my bucket next to a vent for a warm oven for about 20 minutes to help warm it up. I don't think this toasted the yeast, but the performance of the levain seemed to drop off after that.
On the morning of Day 4, the levain had not grown much at all. Rather than having the gassy, webbed texture that held together pretty well as I grabbed hunks to discard after Day 2, it had a soupy, batter-like consistency that was too thick and fluid to effectively grab with my hands. By the start of Day 4 I replenished my supply of KA Whole Wheat and did a full 100% hydration feed with that. It is now the wee hours of the morning on Day 5, about another 6 - 8 hours left before it's a full 5 days. Although I haven't grabbed it, the levain continues to look soupy. It has very little, if any, of the volume and gassiness it had after Day 2. There are currently a few scattered bubbles on the surface, maybe a dozen, but the levain has no lift and doesn't look as vigorous as, say, a poolish after it sits overnight (I've experimented extensively with the pre-ferment doughs in the Forkish book, so I think I have a good sense of what that is like).
Although Day 4 is not quite over yet, I'm skeptical that this levain is vigorous enough to leaven the 75%+ hydration white flour baguettes I plan to make with this.
Should I be concerned about this? I've read that levain can become LESS vigorous after Day 2, due to the development of different bacteria and yeast in the levain and that the less vigorous flora have more of the flavor and maturity we're looking for.
I'm not sure whether I should go ahead and attempt to make my baguette dough or if i should give the levain another day of 100% hydration feed with whole wheat. Maybe I could make a hybrid-dough and give my starter a boost with some commercial yeast for my final dough?
Any suggestions from experienced bakers?
Thanks so much. Happy baking!!
before the yeast is strong enough to raise dough. Be patient (I know, hard to do) and give it more time. It is normal for the mixture to get more fluid as time goes on. Next feeding you might want to skip the discard and just add more flour to thicken it up. What is the temperature of the standing goop?
I got one growing on my counter top as well. :)
Mini
but I don't love the waste of the levain. When baking out of FWSY, I cut things down to 25 g levain, 25 g wholewheat, 100 g AP flour and 100 g water. However, knowing what I know now, I would use 10 g levain, 10 g ww, 40 g AP and 40 g water to maintain. To build it up for baking, the last build would be using 25 or 40 g depending on how much is needed for the recipe. Portions are levain/ww/AP/water : 1/1/4/4. Hope this helps.
So, as an update. it's about 12 hours after I added 150g of KA Whole Wheat Flower. The levin is currently sitting at about 71 F. While the levin seems to have risen in level, there's hardly any bubbling at the surface. Since I'm using a clear tub, I can see there are tiny bubbles below the surface, giving me some hope this might take off overnight (it's 9:30 p.m. PT where I'm at).
I'm trying to figure out how to upload the photos.
I hope this is OK. I can't get TFL to let me upload the photos. Here are download links from dropbox.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9qwuxtd33cky8vv/Levain%20Day%205%20%28bubbles%29.JPG?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hj00ldp9eet43rl/Levain%20Day%205%20%28surface%29.JPG?dl=1
Thanks for the advise about scaling down the size of the levin. Following the forkish method to the letter burns an awful lot of flour, and I've been wondering about ways to cut down on the waste. At any rate, I'm inclined to just let this sit another 12 hours until morning and hope there's some more bubbles by then. Any suggestions?
I've read that what might be happening here is that the pH of the levin needs to drop until the yeast can expand and produce gas. Might I add pineapple juice to help it along if there's still no activity in another 12 hours?
At any rate, thanks so much to all of you that have chimed in to offer suggestions. I love this stuff and its thrilling to see this whole TFL community (I'm a new user) here enjoying baking too!
To be honest with you, I never really worry about having lots of bubbles on the top of the levain. As long as it has risen and there are lots of bubbles below the surface, I know the little beasties are alive and well. One trick that I got from here was to take a bit and see if it floats in water. If it does, you can bake with it.
Just keep at it and it will all work out. You will also find that it might behave differently depending on what you are feeding it and on the room temp. No worries, just go with the flow. I am still very much of a newbie bread baker but I stopped worrying about my starter long ago. It does its own thing on its own schedule and not mine. Ha ha!
I too am rather lax with my starter, not paying that much attention to the feeding schedule and forgetting how long it has been at what temperature. I was doing various builds for various levains over the last few days and neglected to put my bucket of 'mother' starter in the fridge. When I noticed this and took off the lid, it was positively eye-watering! I think the acetic acid beasties had totally take over. I didn't smell of alcohol or acetone like it does when left too long in the fridge, but had a strong sour vinegar smell. Good for some types of bread, I think! I was going to toss it, but decided to pour some on a baking sheet and dry it for later.
getting your goop up to 75°F. Warmth does help. at 71° to 72° F, we'll be on this thread for weeks. :)
+1, like Mini says, go warmer. She's right, in the low 70F range, it will take FOR. EV. ER.
Try keeping your starter somewhere where it's 80-90F. This will really help it get going. You can even do like the "ol' sourdoughs" used to: take your starter, put it in a ziptop plastic baggie, and place it in your pants or shirt pocket, or even better, right next to your skin!
The temperature makes a HUGE difference in the speed of starting (or re-starting) a levain.
When I went to look at the levain this morning, it was bellowed up and vigorous, and double or more the size. Had to run out, so I could take a picture, but I followed the Forkish method for the Pan de Campagne (100g mature levain; 100g KA whole wheat; 400g KA AP). It's sat like that for about 7 hours (I'm not at home), and I will mix the final dough with that as a base in about an hour when I return home.
I also followed Forkish's method for continuing the levain (discard all but 150g levain; 100g KA whole wheat; 400g KA AP). That's been sitting since this morning as well, I'm hoping to store that levain for revival next week and use the first batch to make some baguettes for my family and friends this weekend! I love this!
Thanks so much for all your help. I'll be interested to see if the fed levain/pre-ferment is still vigorous when I'm ready to mix the dough in an hour or so.