The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Oven spring in Fresh milled Whole Grain sourdough...

sheep1's picture
sheep1

Oven spring in Fresh milled Whole Grain sourdough...

I didn't know where to post this one.

I've been baking with freshly milled wheat berries and a well established and active looking whole wheat sourdough started.  I mostly have been baking lean loaves, just milled wheat (100%), water, salt at around 80% hydration.  I do a 45 minute autolyse, 3 hours with 3 stretch and folds, a bench rest of about 20 minutes, then a final shaping.  I've done anything from a 4 to 6 hour rise in a basket or pan to an overnight in the fridge rise.

The grains I'm using are a mixture of various winter hard red wheat and about 1/3 of a white wheat added.

The dough seems to rise well at room temp.  When I put the dough into a basket or pan, it is maybe a little less than 1/2 full.  Over the rise period, it puffs up to about 3/4 of the container.  looking great. 

Then I put the loaves in the oven, either in an Emile ceramic cloche or a Pullman bread pan, and...

get very little oven spring.

Any suggestions?  I've tried extracting some of the bran out and even adding up to 25% unbleached bread flour.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I can't offer much help,  I bake 100% home milled wheat, and rarely get much oven spring, however, I usually get loaves that are pretty light and airy, if I put them in the oven at just the right point .  I have read that you want to be about 80% proofed when they go in the oven, of course, that is pretty hard to judge.  The few times I played with bread flour, I found it much more forgiving, and got much more oven spring than whole wheat.  

matthewr's picture
matthewr

Try using a dough enhancer, it should solve this issue.

I use 3 tbs/loaf of the following mixture:

1 cup wheat gluten
2 tablespoons lecithin granules
1 teaspoon ascorbic acid crystals
2 tablespoons powdered pectin
2 tablespoons unflavored gelatin
1/2 cup nonfat dry milk
1 teaspoon powdered ginger

Hope this helps!

 

Matt

drogon's picture
drogon

I'm no export on wholewheat/grains and use tins for 100^ wholewheat loaves, but I'd suggest autolyzing longer. 2 hours if you can. You really want to get the bran really softened up before developing any gluten - and do watch for over proofing - get it in the oven sooner rather than later.

-Gordon

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

every baker has with whole grain breads when they don't bloom an spring properly it is over proofed and nothing more.  Whole grain bread needs to go into the oven at not more than 80% proof.  What you are describing is 100% proof except for the pan.  Why would you put proofed dough into a Puilman when you are supposed to proof the dough in the pan?

For the longest time I had the same problem u til I posted a picture of the dough going into the basket and one when I thought it was properly proofed and ready for the oven.  Mini Oven took one look at it and said it was way, way, way over proofed and that was the en of my problems. 

Happy Baking - Post some pictures next time so Mini can set you straight like she did me:-)

sheep1's picture
sheep1

Thank you for the suggestions.  Yesterday I finally got around to baking two identical loaves, the only thing different between them was the amount of time in autolyse.

My recipe:

425 gr flour fresh ground whole wheat flour

334 gr. water

60 gr. refreshed whole wheat starter (1:1 ratio water to flour)

8.5 gr. salt.

Loaf #1= mix water and flour, let sit covered with plastic wrap on counter in glass bowl overnight (start 10 pm)

Loaf #2= mix water and flour, let sit covered with plastic wrap on counter in glass bowl for 1 hour.

Added: Starter from fridge (last used 5 days ago), refreshed at 8:00 am and used when bubbly, 11:00 am. (3 hour).  And 8.5 gr. fine sea salt.

Knead each for 6 minutes (here was an instant difference- the O/N autolyse dough was firm and not very stretchy, the 1 hour autolyse dough was sticky and very stretchy).

3 Stretch and Folds over the next 3 hours. (again, the O/N dough was firm and not stretchy, the 1 hour autolysed dough was very stretchy and "looser").

Shape on counter until there was a tension to the dough.  Let rest on counter 20 minutes.

Final shape, place into well oiled small loaf pans.  I normally let the dough rise in the pans for about 3 hours, but this time only went 2 hours and 15 minutes due to time constraints.  The doughs rose exactly the same amount in the pans.

Bake 45 min (start oven at 425 degrees, reduced heat to 375 degrees when loaves placed in oven).

(I can't seem to upload a photo from Flickr!  Sorry!  But the 1 hour autolyse loaf has quite a bit more oven spring apparent than the overnight autolysed loaf, which sort of surprised me! Both have more oven spring than I have been getting previously!  YAY!)

Oven spring apparent in both loaves, which I think is due to the shorter rise time than I normally use in the pans.  I am surprised to see the difference in oven spring between the two of these.  As far as taste and texture, the overnight autolysed loaf has slightly more tang and slightly more "spongy" texture, but they are so close that I don't think most people would notice.

Next I plan on trying autolyse in the morning when I refresh the starter- about a 3-4 hour hour autolyse, and paying close attention to the proofing.  I think dabrownman is right that perhaps I had been overproofing. (PS- I either do a final rise in "regular" loaf pans, pullman pan, or in a floured towel lined basket.  The pans go directly in the oven, the basket risen goes into the preheated ceramic cloche)

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

long autolyse of whole grain flour on the counter.  The enzyme that breaks down the protein chains that form when the flour gets wet is protease and most of that is found in the whole grain portion of the flour.  So the higher the hydration  longer the whole grain flour is wet and the higher the temperature the more gluten that will be damaged - causing less rise and spring in the oven.  I try to stay between 2-4 hours if on the counter for an autolyse of whole grains.  White flour isn't usually a problem with longer autolyse since most of the protease has been removed. 

The other problem with a long autolyse on the counter may be causing the texture difference in the crumb.  The amylase a and b enzymes are what break down the starch in the flour into sugars the wee beasties can eat.  The higher the hydration, longer time and higher the temperature, makes the enzymes work faster.  So there is quite a bit of sugar being produced in an overnight, high temperature, high hydration autolyse - way more than the wee beasites can metabolize.  This makes for very sweet crumb and fine browning iof the bread becsue of the residual sugar left over after ferment and proof but too much sugar also gets in the way of producing a good crumb structure because sugar absorbs water and can make the crumb too soft and gummy.  Too much sugar can also slow yeast metabolism as well making for a loaf that isn't as tall and airy.

I have found detriment effects of autolysing whole grain flour longer than 4 hours on the counter, but, since enzymes of all kinds are slowed down by lowered temperature (every 18 F reduces enzyme activity by a factor of 2), you can retard the autolyse in the fridge at the 2 hour mark for an overnight period and suffer any ill effects that and overnight one on teh counter could cause

For more info http://www.classofoods.com/page1_4.html

ramp's picture
ramp

Hi,

I have almost the same setup and I got more oven spring when :

1.- Sorten the second fermentation.

2.- Do stretch and folds during the first fermentation (not too much)

3.- I'm looking for more tips to get extra oven spring , so my test are :

  3.1.- More or less amount of starter as more acidity strength the gluten

  3.2.- Better oven conditions : steam, temperature, baking steel

  3.3.- Better extensibility thru autolysis (from 20m to 2h).

Runnerfemme's picture
Runnerfemme

echoing what some have said, consider a bit of diastatic malt powder and/or vital wheat gluten.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-4-oz-jar

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/vital-wheat-gluten-16-oz

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

be 60% full, not less than 50%.  Whole grains do not and will not spring like white breads.  With the an this full, this bread needs to go in to the oven when the center of the loaf is 1/2" above the rim if the pan - no more.  You can add some VWG and or dough enhancer to get better spring for whole grain breads and the difference is quite remarkable.  

Good luck.

ramp's picture
ramp

...just water,salt,wholemeal 

I just try in the past with orange juice and it really works and also aging the wholemeal flour for 3 months and also helps.

My aim is to obtain the maximum oven spring without extra help, so for that, strech & fold in the first fermentation and a short second fermentation to avoid over fermentation are my main tools , and those works ... but I want more :-)

Also as far as I have a mill with different degree of milling gone to test if finest possition helps vs medium possition.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

A 100% whole wheat bread with good oven spring, from David Snyder's experience.  You'll notice that it is enriched, where it sounds as though you want yours to be lean.  However, the same techniques can still be applied.

Paul

ramp's picture
ramp

is what the link is about , isn't it?

Yeah, maybe in my latest test I nearly don't knead at all, just mix and streach & fold but at least with spelt it's the best aproach, maybe in the case of other wheats like khorasan, red wheat , ... more kneading by hand or stand mixer is right thing

pmccool's picture
pmccool

It seems that the longer kneading time, even though at a comparatively low speed, conditions the gluten in a way that permits a fluffier crumb than doughs that receive less mixing.  Without some expensive testing equipment, there's no way for the home baker to know whether the gluten has gotten stronger, or weaker.  At a guess, it may be that elasticity is reduced and extensibility is increased, allowing for greater expansion while still retaining enough gas volume.  But that's just a guess.

Paul

sheep1's picture
sheep1

Thanks all for the comments.  I finally made some variations to my methods that have seemed to get really good results, I'm getting nice looking slash marks with my razor blade, and getting oven spring (finally after almost a year!).

I found out that I live near a bakery supply place, Keith Giusto baking Supply in Petaluma, CA.  I talked to someone there and he mentioned the usual things, don't over autolyse, don't over proof, but the secret is to lighten the loaf up just a bit with 85% bolted flour (where part of the bran is removed).  

And finally, here is what works for me:

80% freshly ground whole wheat berries (I've been using a mix of red hard winter wheat, hard white winter wheat) with 20% of 85% bolted flour at 78-82% hydration. I have been sifting out the coarsest bran in my home ground flour, my grinder doesn't seem to grind particularly fine ( I go through two sifters and am left with with about 75 grams of really coarse bran mostly I think, out of 1,000 grams input berries). After adding water, Autolyse for 1.5 hour.  Add in starter (I've been using 150 gr. per 1000 g flour) and salt (at 1.9%).  Knead for 5-7 minutes on bench.  Stretch and Fold 3 times at 50 minutes.  Bench rest for 20 minutes, shape and place into well floured wood pulp basket and store in fridge overnight for 8-9 hours.  Remove dough, let sit at room temp for 1 hour while ceramic cloche is heating in the oven to 500 degrees.  Flip over dough onto parchment paper placed on a peel.  Slash with razor.  Place into pre-heated cloche, and return cloche to oven and turn oven down to 450 degrees.  After 35 minutes remove cloche cover.  Bake an additional 22-25 minutes.  I get good oven spring now with this method.  I've also put the dough in a dutch oven overnight and get good results.

Sorry I don't have photos.  I have trouble figuring out how to add pictures here- I've tried before and failed :(

I think it just takes a lot of trial and error to see what works in our own kitchens.  I really wanted to stick with a lean loaf.  For me, the biggest variable seems to be that overnight proof in the fridge- that must give me the perfect (or almost perfect) proof.  When I've used the same method same day, proofing anywhere from 1-4 hours (I tested at each hourly time point in the same week before trying an overnight proof that my friend suggested), I don't get as nice of a loaf.  Go figure.

I really want to try a high hydration loaf, but wanted to stay at the 78% ish until I figured out a standard method for me.  My husband hates the holes in high hydration loaves (he eats a lot of peanut butter or butter on jam on toast), but I'm going to move into higher hydration loaves next despite his protests :)

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

being 11-13% of the seed I would say your mill is darn good when 2 sifting only get out 7.5%.  I get 12% with one sifting for regular grain and 20% if the grain is sprouted or tempered.

sheep1's picture
sheep1

I looked back at my notes, and realize that I had written my extraction amount wrong, dabrownman.  When I was testing the amount of hard bits being sifted out, I was still experimenting with 700 grams of input berries, which works out to about 10.7% right?  I also don't know what size my sifter is- I am using a metal vegetable strainer for my first pass, then a really old (meaning 1950's era) flour sifter from Italy as my second sifter.  I have no idea what the size of the sifter is- but it isn't particularly fine- a lot of large particles still pass through.  If comparing to the pictures of the 40 mesh flour sifter on the Breadtopia website, my 2nd flour sifter isn't that fine.

I'm using the Mockmill attached to my Kitchenaid mixer.  

petite's picture
petite

i recently purchased a grainmaker mill and have been really disappointed with my bread results thus far.  i have similar issues to the above and can't seem to get my starter to come alive.  the bread doesn't even have great flavor - i'm using organic hard white wheat berries from breadtopia, i also have some red fife berries i've not tried yet.  i had these illusions that freshly milled flour would bring out this great fresh bread flavor, but honestly i love my sourdough bread made with king arthur unbleached bread flour so much - the whole grain flour taste seems dull to me, i don't get it.  maybe the white flour has the ability to bring out more subtle flavors of the wild yeast, whereas the heavier wheat flour overpowers these flavor nuances.  i don't know, but the mill was expensive, the grain is expensive, the effort to mill is time consuming and i'm really frustrated.  i love making home made sour dough, and really hoped to enhance my flavor profiles, not mute them.  

first problem is the starter - it doesn't seem to like the freshly ground flour.  i've tried bolting it, and it does help, but not by much.  whereas i get nice large rise with commercial flour, the whole grain milled flour rises by half as much and deflates significantly overnight in the fridge by the next day.

second issue is the density of the loaves.  i'm not good at measuring, so i don't know what hydration i'm using - i probably don't use enough water, as i don't like working with sticky doughs, so this is probably my own fault.  maybe a higher hydration would help the oven spring and density of loaves.  i do want the air pockets in my loaves, but haven't been able to achieve that will my milled flour.

i'm interested to try to suggestions given here, reducing fermentation time among others.  i had hoped to duplicate the flavor i got using anson mills Mediterranean flour (samuel fromartz' recipe) milling my own, but to date it's been a disappointment.  i don't say this lightly, i hope to get some encouragement that my mill purchase will pay off eventually...others seems to think fresh milled flour does taste better.

 

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

from the milled flour. Since your present starter doesn’t like this new flour, try making one that does. 

Also i am surprised that you don’t like the flavour. In a baking class I took, we made pitas from commercial flour and fresh milled flour. The taste difference was amazing. There was no question which pitas were made with fresh flour. Maybe your berries are old or have been contaminated somehow. 

petite's picture
petite

Hi Danni - I wanted to thank you for your suggestion to make a fresh starter, it worked!  I followed Samuel Fromartz's recpe for Red Turkey and have had good results when I measure carefully.  I'm very interested in making pita's from fresh milled flour now, do you have a recipe to share?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

but I am not sure where I put the recipes from that class. If I find it, I’ll post back. Sorry...

joe_n's picture
joe_n

I use the pita recipe below done on the stovetop.

https://alaunts20.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/pita-bread-no-knead-stovetop-style/

It is roughly at 80% hydration, but I often use 82-85%.

You can delete either the  SAF yeast or the rye sour (if you don't have a starter).  You can also use both.

I usually always have the whole ground buckwheat flour.

petite's picture
petite

thanks very much joe, i like the recipe and cooking method as i don't have an oven that can get super hot.  am interested in using more fresh ground flour in my bread - do you use bolted ww flour?  and if i try grinding my own buckwheat would i use the sprouting kind of grain that includes the husk?

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Hi petite,

For pita,  I grind once on a fine setting (Komo grinder).  I bought Arrowhead Mills whole ground buckwheat from Amazon. I'll get a link for the best deal I found. I once found the buckwheat with husk and ground it as needed but recently could not obtain it at a nearby store. For pita, I do not bolt the flour since getting pita to balloon has never been a problem. I do grind whole rye berries for the sour.  By Laurel's Bread book, just add a tiny pinch (even a grain or two!) of saf yeast to start the rye sour.

I usually grind 2-3X for making a sourdough whole grain loaf.  I used to sift but do not need to anymore. Once I followed Elly's YT method for ww sd, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd_r69WauPk&t=26s,  I did not need to bolt the flour anymore.  Her 90% hydration method with overnight cold autolyse has solved so many problems for me.  The main caution is over fermenting the dough but you will get the hang of it, so be encouraged!!  Just get her first step done with flour and water only.

petite's picture
petite

Thank you Joe!  I'm very excited to try Elly's YT method!  I would love to be able to use all the bran and eliminate bolting.  I've got my first attempt in the fridge now, I hope it works.  Thanks also for the deal on buckwheat flour - I want to try milling my own first, I have a GrainMaker and it grinds very fine so I'm hoping it will do the trick.  I've not tried the pita recipe yet, I want to try out Elly's loaf first.  Have you tried this method with any challenging grains such as Einkorn or Spelt?  

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Hi Petite,

I used 50% kamut and 50% hard white ww  for pita and it was SOFT!  

I had just finished an "Elly" bake with 50% each of hard white and red wheat berries when I saw that you were starting a bake!  I posted  pictures at 

https://alaunts20.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/t-w-50-whole-wheat-sourdough-loaf/

I am really glad to have gotten into milling flour. I can get 50 lb sacks of hard white and red wheat at the natural food store for very good prices.  The  kamut  is over $2.50 /lb .  I can't find  Einkorn for a reasonable price yet.  

I 'll be waiting to hear about your bake!

petite's picture
petite

Hi Joe - what a time i've had:  i'd worked hard to refresh my starter over 5 days to get it nice and ripe, it was so sluggish but finally seemed to liven up, so i ground my WW berries for the overnight soak using Elly's method.  i was using red fife for some time, but was running low, so i had to feed my starter with other grains which it didn't like.  when i took it out of the fridge along with the flour, it just looked dead - i tried to feed it another day, so the soak stayed in the fridge 2 days.  the next day i started the stretch & fold, it stayed very soft, very hydrated, and didn't hold any real shape.  i was mistaken about the next step and put it back in the fridge another night!  when i took it out to rise the following day, it just sat there like a soupy mess.  i tried to shape it like Elly did, but ended up doing another stretch & fold trying to salvage it.  after letting it rise to room temp all day, i gave it and baked it in a le Creuset casserole (this ruins my pot, i need another vessel for high temp baking).  low and behold the soupy mess had a little spring/life in it after all!  i can't wait to taste it tomorrow.  i'm thrilled that it wasn't a total waste - there something really agonizing about milling your own flour when you grind it manually for a lot of effort and not having a successful bake.   

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Hi Petite,

Schedule 1 day when you can devote to the bread.

The mix the first night takes no real time so that part is done.

The next afternoon to early evening need to be dedicated time.

If your starter is not ready ( and often mine isn't) I add the 1-2 tsp SAF yeast into the 130 gr starter and don't worry about it not being absolutely pure.  The starter even if not ready will add flavor if it has been sitting around. You need to get the feel of handling a ready dough.  That will encourage the next bake.  Try 50 gr of white flour in your starter for a lighter loaf (yield:90% ww loaf).

On day 2, let the dough (with the 130 gr starter and salt  mixed in) go through its rise.  Depending on the room temp or where you put it , you do have  a 5-8 hr period free.   

Take care to control temps thru the S/F at 76F- the Brod and Taylor proofer solved this part for me.  Steady temps through the next 2-3 hours seem to guarantee my oven springs.  I know investing in this equipment is not something you might be ready to do, but it is a key factor for what works for me.

My Creuset is not so great looking anymore but I did scrub it out with "Bar Keeper" or  "Bon Ami" cleanser.  These don't scratch finishes on bakeware.

You will get a successful bake as you handle the dough more.  I still have an old bake in the freezer -I thought I could put a lean 100% ww dough at 80% hydration  into my toaster oven without  steam!

I am looking forward to hearing about the characteristics of your bread.  Keep examining the things that are good  and what things are not desirable.  Keeping talking about it to others here at fresh loaf. 

 

petite's picture
petite

I missed this reply til now - thanks for the encouragement.  I've since made another attempt, but I had to rush the final rise - lesson learned and confirmed with your notes.  However, even though they are not perfect, I'm enjoying both very much - the first one had good oven spring and good texture; it's a firm ww, but not dry.  The second loaf I made 50/50 with KA organic bread flour/Sonora wheat.  I think it would have been wonderful if I'd not rushed the final proof. 

I need a proofing box!  My kitchen is very chilly, so sometimes I must leave my starters out for days at room temp to get them to react; I feed them several times a day.  Speaking of which, I wanted to ask if you feed your starter with unbolted flour?  Mine work much better with bolted flour and El.ly didn't say in the video.  Anyway, I am loving this method, and the bread seems healthier and not hard to digest.  I'm excited to keep working this method.

I don't like to use commercial yeast unless I can't avoid it; I'm working on growing some of my own yeast from fermented fruit from a Japanese video I saw...will report back.

 

David R's picture
David R

Not any kind of yeast will do. Usually the yeast that grows on fruit is not helpful for bread. The bread kind grows, luckily, on grain and in flour, so you don't have to - and shouldn't - look to other sources.

In other words, your starter already has the right kind of yeast, and if you brought in the fruit yeast, you'd be ruining it rather than improving it.

 

Just to be clear - go ahead and use the fruit yeast for the purposes it's good for; just take note that bread isn't one of them.

joe_n's picture
joe_n

I have 10 gr of rye sour (see Laurel's bread book) and then feed it with freshly milled whole wheat flour  (not bolted) or AP. 

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Amazon has a deal for organic whole ground buckwheat by Arrowhead Mills, 8lb ( in 6 packages) for ~$22-24 (depends on whether order is on subscription or not). A year ago, it was $18(Feb), $20 (Oct.2018). It has a lot of fiber which I like and the dark specks of the hull.  The Komo cannot grind it as fine as this product is.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GL6PR5O/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

 

petite's picture
petite

that the yeasted pitas from fresh milled flour tasted better - that's encouraging, i make pita all the time using white bread flour and i love the softness and flavor.  (i tried sourdough pitas once, not for me).  i doubt it's a problem with the grain, i hope it's a learning curve and that it doesn't take me a year to figure it out.  i'm am trying to rebuild my starter now, and wonder if i shouldn't leave it out as long as a white flour starter?  i really appreciate any encouragement that my mill purchase will eventually pay off.

JoshuaLoafer's picture
JoshuaLoafer

I spent an entire winter baking every day to get this result.  Went through a LOT of flour.  Mostly, I had flat loaves.  Finally, I was able to produce the result below every time.  For 100% whole grain, I was pretty darned happy.  The product looked good, tasted good, and sold well.  The only down side was the crust turned into armor after a couple of days - normal for this style of bread but out of the realm of experience for most American consumers.  

The flour was 100% stone ground whole grain warthog red wheat from castle valley mill, no sculping - so all of the super-gnarly bran was in it.   The levain is a sour 100% same wheat.  (btw there's so much yeast on the grain you can get an active sour from zero to ready-to-rise within 24 hours).  

I took careful notes and baked daily in an outdoor wood-fired pizza oven.  That let me learn the needs of the flour and the sour and the properties of my oven in terms of bread baking.  I learned a ton that might translate to all such bakes.  But there's no substitute for becoming intimate with your ingredients and your equipment if you want consistent results.

Some takeaways: 
1) Hydration is critical to soften the bran. You need a wet dough and plenty of time. 
2) There's a ton of nutrition in a whole grain flour, and in the case of the castle valley mill product ther'es tons of extra wild yeast beyond what's activated in the sour.  Either way, it requires a cool to cold rise (less than 60F).  Otherwise the dough over-proofs if you follow recipe timing, and that's one reason it collapses or doesn't spring in the oven.
3) MIX BY HAND.  Mixers are not going to develop this dough as nicely because the bran is too hard at this stage.  All the gluten structure is at risk of getting shredded.   So start with the dry ingredients (flour and salt) and a wire whisk.  Add the liquid (sour and water) and use your hand(s) for the rest.  Just focus on getting the flour all wet.  It's going to be really shaggy at first.  Let it be.
4) Give a long, long autolyse.   
5) Then, fold GENTLY. Just one fold each time.  Don't try to stretch too much. This is where you're going to learn about your ingredients, how much stress they can take and how fast the dough gets gassy. 
5)  Shape loaves GENTLY.  Barely round them before the bench rest.  At final shaping, go slow and be gentle. Don't even try to build the kind of structure and tension you see in bread flour techniques.  Here you're trying to preserve the existing structure and gasses.
6) I'm not talented. There's no way I could make any shape out of this other than a boule.  Nothing else ever worked for me with this much bran in the flour. 
6)  Make sure final rest is at cool temps. Again, tons of wild yeast.and nutrition. The dough can easily get away from you.
7)  This might be specific to my conditions, but - bake when slightly underproofed. 
8)  Again maybe specific to my conditions - Simple scoring in an X pattern to allow a straight up oven spring.  Because of the lack of structure, I found scoring on the sides or even making a "box" didn't give this dough what it needed to express itself. 

100% warthog whole wheat no sculping castle valley mill

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Joshua,  loaves look great, would love to see more details on your recipe and your timing.   You say long autolyse - do you mean 2 hours, 12 hours, or something else? 

JoshuaLoafer's picture
JoshuaLoafer

Thanks Barry -  sorry if I write too much.   This probably isn't as helpful as it would be with someone else writing it. 

So I would say first that I wouldn't want to suggest my answers would be the answer for anyone else.  Recipes are just guidelines.  Or maybe it's more accurate and a lot less arrogant to say that I haven't the experience to be able to confidently state that MY recipe is going to work for everyone.  I hide my arrogance and lack of experience behind the philosophy that there's no substitute for knowing your own ingredients and equipment intimately,and going through lots of controlled bakes aimed at a thoroughly envisioned target result and coming up short (or long) and adjusting and repeating until you're the only one who notices when it comes up short.   And I also believe that bread is one of the many things humanity once mastered and has since polluted.  So my objective was to make bread exactly the way it was meant to be - with the product of a single farm, milled in a way that didn't denature it, with wild yeast leavening and water and salt and a wood-fired oven (optional).   

But for ingredients I used -  (truly stone-ground whole grain product of a single farm with barely any bran removed)  - 12 hours autolyse would be closer than 2.  The main concerns would be 1) having the yeasts run away with the dough, which you can control with low temperature (I only measure ambient room temperature and go by feel for whatever is needed for water temp - I like the room between 60 F and 65 F but it's not always possible), and having the enzymes come along and destroy the gluten (and you can control enzymes with salt - although yeast didn't seem to mind salt because there's so much wild yeast and so much complete nutrition and the natural enzymes there to break down the starch - I could easily add up to 5% salt).   

4-6 hours would be realistic, with a single gentle turn at the end, then leave it for another 4-6 hours.  Then another turn and possibly another turn after 2 more hours.  Then rest for 1 hour, portion and pre-shape, then bench rest 1 hour  and then final gentle shaping. 

As to recipe - I started with one of Hamelman's country loaves and Robertson's tartine process and observed results.   From Robertson I learned what the starter should look and smell like when it was optimal for lifting bread.  But neither Hamelman nor Robertson recipes or processes produced a loaf with oven spring using 100% whole grain warthog. 

Some things I decided to do differently than Robertson - I mix all of my dry ingredients first.  Robertson adds the salt after a few turns.  Because hes says the salt tightens (shortens?) gluten bonds so you want them to be developed first.   But I noticed in the process of adding salt after the dough developed that I was pretty much ripping up all the long gluten strands i had just spent hours developing.  Seemed counter-intuitive. I was already dealing with hard core bran - slayer of all gluten strands - so why make it worse by adding salt later? Plus it was hard on the hands, all that squeezing and twisting to cut the salt in.  Although I own an 80-qt Hobart and a little KA for the home, I don't use them and they would murder this dough's potential.    So I threw out that part of his process. 

Also, I noticed that, regardless of following Robertson's detailed instructions for care and feeding of the sour (using different flour than mine) - my sour was always over-ripened and not available when I needed it for production.  That's when I realized the yeast load and nutrition profile was very different for my ingredients.  His time and temperatures made my sours go nutz.  So, I threw out that part of his process.

Then, I discovered that I needed WAY more salt than you'd expect.  Without it, during those long rests the enzymes would do what they do.  The flour contains the G-d given enzyme load and that is way more than commercial flour.  "Extra" salt % didn't hurt anything - there's so much yeast and so much nutrition for it, the dough could totally handle more salt.  

Oh- I almost forgot - the hydration levels had to be dramatically increased from recipes.  I don't even want to say where they generally  ended up because you wouldn't believe me.  I remember thinking when I first started that I must be measuring incorrectly - the recipes said these were high hydration recipes but the dough was really stiff and dry.   So added more, and more, and more.  But with that much bran, you A) need more hydration to soften the bran so it shreds your dough less, and B) can expect the bran to suck up lots of liquid.   It's frankly astonishing, if you use the recipes as an definition of what a high hydration % is.  These days, high hydration means the way a dough looks and feels, not the bakers %. 

These days I don't weigh water. I simply add until the dough feels right.  I do that with all my bread and pizza baking now, except Hamelman's ryes with whole grain soakers, which I'm just learning (my first Horst Bandel black came out of the oven 2 hours ago I can't wait to try it - it looks like I hoped it would and smells amazing).   If I overshoot the hydration I let the bulk dough sit uncovered and the excess evaporates.  Undershooting is harder to solve - even though you can get a developed dough to accept more water later, it's a pain and takes more time. So I hydrate fearlessly  :)

Anyway, back to the bread - the pre-shape and bench rest are relatively short and the final shape and rest are also fairly short.  45 min to 1.5 hrs each.   

Out of all of this trial and error, what ended up being definitively true is that making bread dough in the absolutely old-school manner from the most traditional ingredients possible is a lot less work and worry than modern bread-making.  The only improvement to bread-making IMHO has been modern deck ovens with steam injection.  Baking in a wood-fired oven (particularly an oven without little thermal mass like my pizza oven) adds a huge degree of difficulty without a corresponding payoff in terms of results. 

(With that in mind, until tonight I did believe that a bread like Horst Bandel that needs to bake for 12 hrs to 14 hrs would need the gentle fall in heat provided by a wood fired masonry oven - HOWEVER, I decided to bake my first attempt in a home oven but in a proper commercial grad Pullman pan.  Judging by looks alone, not even this bread needs a wood-fired oven if you can be available to adjust the temperature on a home oven.)

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Watch this youtube-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd_r69WauPk&t=612s

 

Elly's 100% WW SD

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Joe, thanks for the info.  I had run across Elly's recipe on FB,  and tried it, but the results were not that great.  First, I can control temps pretty accurately, since I had a homemade proofer chiller.  I am at work most of the day, so timing something every 4 hours or so  doesn't work, I need to adapt so that it can sit for 8 to 10 hours at a time.  I use only home milled winter white wheat, with no sifting, and while most everyone says to use high hydration, I find it overproofs during bulk ferment. I think the only way to get it right is to try over and over again with slight changes in the process to you find something that works with your starter, your wheat, your temps and your time constraints.   I  wanted your observations to see what general ideas you liked.  Are you saying that the autolyse includes salt ?  

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Hi,

I milled 50% white and 50% red hard wheat berries.

Sift the flour and regrind the bran (1 time).

Put the bran back into the rest of the flour and mix it up.

Measure in the 90% water , mix well with a wooden paddle.

No salt at this time.

I used a large yogurt tub with lid for the dough.  It goes into the refrigerator overnight.  I took it out the next morning and was ready to  add the starter, which was half (whole, fresh ground)rye and half AP ( I00% hydr).  There might have been a 1-2 hr delay when the overnight dough was at room temp before I spread the starter.

 

(This next step is not acceptable to purists but you can add 2 tsp SAF instant yeast to the starter (before spreading it onto the dough) to insure a rise.  Then you can decrease it bake by bake until you don't need it anymore.  It keeps one motivated on the 100% whole wheat SDs.  The bread still has such a good chew, crackly crust, excellent for toast, etc.)

Spread the starter and salt just like the YouTube shows. Knead.

Let it rise 2X. It seems that at cool temps you can be away, say at work,  for the day (8-10hrs) before getting back to it.  I was at home so I watched when the dough was ready (poke test).  Over fermenting is a real possibility so be careful here.

After it is double, start the S/F.

The 4th one is when you tip it out.

Elly didn't have a preshape but I did one and let it rest for 15 min.

It then went into the final shaping and "banneton"-a plastic colander .  The dough was on parchment paper-I sprayed it with PAM to keep it from sticking.  The paper circle can be cut along 8 radial lines to within 2 inches of the center to avoid the creases.

One remark is - don't force the dough on S/F if it tears the dough -like on the 3rd and 4th S/Fs.  Tearing can occur at shaping too.

Over fermenting at any stage after the leaven (starter , yeast) is added causes affects a good oven spring.

Have a hot cast iron pot and lid!! (40-60 min preheat at 475F)

Those are some observations.  Write back on how you do.

 

 

 

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Hi,

Were you using the recipe from the Youtube?

Mix:

450 gr whole wheat

405 gr. water (90% hydration)

Put into refrig overnight (12 hr)

-----

Next morning: 

add in layers (see Youtube;  

130 gr starter

9 gr salt (1.3 tsp)

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Joe, thanks.  I have been playing with trying to get sour flavor, so I am using low innoculation ( 8 grams of starter ) which is refreshed at high temps  82 F ,     so I bumped the starter up to 25 grams instead of the 130 grams she called for.

Glad to see that you autolysed without salt.  I actually tested it, made some without salt and let it sit for a full day, and the dough didn't degrade, so i didn't think it was a problem with enzymatic activity.    I followed her suggestions for hydration and salt, though I do think I overproofed during bulk fermentation.   I tried a second time, cutting back the water a bit, and got similar results.  She noted that you could use a mixer, and I did, though I don't think that caused the problem.  I am trying again tonight, and will change the temp for BF to try to avoid overproofing.   

 

 

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Hi again!

I put a dough in the refrig this morning at 9:30am. I am planning to take it out at 9:30pm, work in the starter and let it sit in the garage overnight.

I'll do S/F early tomorrow morning, 6am.

Walnut, rosemary and cranberries this time, maybe.