The Fresh Loaf

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Yeast and S&F method

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

Yeast and S&F method

Due to my laziness in bringing out my Assistent for kneading, and my lack of success with hand kneading, i would have to adopt the S&F method for my breads.

There is, however, something i'm unsure of with this method.

Most of the time, due to my baking schedule, the bread needs to be started and baked in ~5 hours. And that means i usually use a little more yeast than necessary (~2%) and sacrifice flavor for speed. A poolish makes up for it a little.

For most recipes here for the hydration i want, they do S&F over ~3 hours (4 times, 45 min intervals), followed by a bulk ferment till it's 'doubled'.

If i'm speeding up the bulk ferment, will doing the S&F over 3 hours result in over proofing? Is that a possibility at the bulk ferment stage? And this 3 hours is even before final proofing.  

I'm aware i could just retard the loaves to better fit my schedule, but i would much prefer to finish off the loaves in one sitting.

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

"If i'm speeding up the bulk ferment, will doing the S&F over 3 hours result in over proofing?"

I'd say it's possible that the yeast could use up all the fuel during that time. You might use cold water to slow down yeast activity and it would gradually warm, so that the last rise would occur more quickly. I will note that you don't have to allow the dough to double after the final S&F; you're going to deflate the dough before shaping anyway.

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

That's a great suggestion!

So i should be relying on the finger poke test right? By the way, does that mean i should be doing the finger poke test twice over the course of baking a bread?

And this brings me to another question. Some recipes advise to be careful to not degass the dough before shaping, the other say to degass/deflate before shaping. Which is correct? Or when do i use which method? 

 

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

When you use S&F, you're degassing the dough well before it passes a finger-poke test. The finger-poke is really only relevant if you're allowing the dough uninterrupted expansion time. If you don't allow the dough to double, you'll probably only need the finger-poke for final proofing. But if you do allow the dough to double during bulk fermentation, yes, you'll need the finger-poke test there, too.

I'm aware that Peter Reinhart warns about not losing the bubbles you acquire during fermentation, but this advice really messed me up during my early bread-making efforts. First of all, it's really impossible to avoid when you shape the dough, and if you worry about it too much, you won't get a good tight shaping and it will likely be easy to overproof. Secondly, I've found that the bubbles come back during proofing, so you can get a nice, open crumb. I'm sure that Peter gave the advice for some reason...perhaps there are some people who tend to get overenthusiastic on the degassing. I suppose that I tend to pat the dough rather lightly prior to shaping, so maybe I'm doing it just the way he intends.

 

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

Thanks for that!

If i'm not doing the finger poke test, how will i know when the dough is ready for shaping and final proofing?

By the tactile feel? By the bubbles in the double as seen through a glass container? Or given the length of time, it's bound to be done? But with this method, it might not be ready if the ambient temp was too low, and i used insufficient yeast right?

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

I may be misunderstanding your question, but the dough is ready for shaping when the gluten has developed sufficiently through the S&F. You'll notice that each S&F gets harder; it will probably be ready shortly after the third at reasonable hydration levels. At the yeast levels you mentioned, the dough should be much puffier after the third fold compared with the first.

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

I get it now. I've been using the poke test as a gauge for if bulk fermentation was ready. So now i suppose knowing when the 'gluten has developed sufficiently' is something that has to be learned from doing eh?

And thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions!!

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

"'gluten has developed sufficiently' is something that has to be learned from doing eh?"

Yes. I think you'll know it when you see it. At your first fold, the dough is loose and stretchy and after folding, it rapidly loses its shape and falls back into a puddle. But after each fold, it retains its shape longer and longer. Eventually it's really hard to stretch it for folding, which is a signal that you're done. It might not pass a windowpane test, but I don't think you want it to anyway.

tom scott's picture
tom scott

As a beginner this comment was helpful to me.  I will start paying closer attention to the dough when doing the S&F's.

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

For all the help. More excuses to bake more bread!

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

...why are you reluctant to get your Assistent out to mix the dough?  Is it a pain to set up or clean or something?  There was a discussion about mixers here a few months ago and the general consensus was that it is a great machine.

     --Mike

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

I can't speak for the OP, but the machine is a heavy monster. I bring it out more happily once I installed sliding trays in my lower cabinets. Cleanup also takes a while. But yes, it's a great machine.

HPoirot's picture
HPoirot

I mix and do S&F in a small plastic bowl, which is way easier than cleaning the huge metal mixing bowl of the assistent.

Also, my loaves tend to be ~400g (200g flour total), making me very very reluctant to break out the mixer.

I do, however, agree with the opinions here. It's a great machine for bread kneading!