The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Matzo Experts?

dobie's picture
dobie

Matzo Experts?

Just wondering if there might be someone out there who can help me.

On occasion, I get to stop into a good Kosher Deli and almost invariably, will order a Matzo Ball soup.

It usually comes as one ball, about  the size of a baseball or slightly larger and in a nice, clear chicken broth.

The Matzo Balls are always very light and lacey. You could suck up the broth thru the ball (if you could figure out how to do it).

I have on occasion been able to replicate this at home, but not consistently, and I wonder what I might do to insure success.

I will share all my trials and tribulations if appropriate. But if you can help, I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Are club soda (seltzer water), baking powder, separate egg whites and fold them in, make sure to over them as they simmer gently.  Using none of any gives you sinkers the favorite of many.  The more BP the fluffier, 1/2 to 1 tsp per cup of matzoh  Using seltzer and BP even more fluffy and then folding in the egg whites with seltzer and BP makes for the most fluffy of all.  Not covering the matzohs when simmering males them not rise and can turn them brown where they hit the air

Make sure to retard the dough for an hour in the fridge before forming and simmering

That is all there is to it.

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm,

 First, thank you. And if ever there was a word that could be spelled 6 different ways, Matzoh is one.

Now, of course I'm trying to keep Kosher for my friends, so I believe baking soda is out?

And I agree about the retard and then the simmering (and turning) while otherwise covered.

While I have tried seltzer as well as whipped egg whites, I don't know if I have tried them together. That might be the key.

Don't get me wrong, the one's I can make are reasonably light and fluffy to a some degree, just not quit as much so as those from the Deli,  and not so consistant. Maybe, they are using baking soda.

Thanks

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

It is fermenting that is out as in yeast and SD for Passover.  Some Jews think if there is corn starch in BP then it is a no no but that is but that is an issue of kitniot and not chametz.  You can get a new can to make sure no contamination or if.  If you live in a large city with a good kosher grocery you will find K for P BP readily available.

BS needs an acid to activate and there shouldn't be an acid in MB's :-)

.

 

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Thank you for the response. Still a few questions

While I am not particularly Jewish, neither am I not. And raised amongst Jews, I am not totally unfamiliar with the terminologies, yet also, I am not an expert in understanding the distinctions.

Just to be clear, BP is baking powder and K for P is Kosher for Passover, and of course, MB is Matzo Ball (surprisingly, it took me a while to figure that out).

So, BS is baking soda (which would obviously need an acid to activate, of course). I did not know that acid could declassify a Matzo as Kosher.

I do get the whole non-leavened thing, and so from water to flour to bake, should be no more than 18 minutes. Historically (whatever a minute was), the thought being that there was no possibility of fermentation.

Please remember, I have to explain my process to my friends, and would not like to decieve them even by ignorance. Thus these questions.

First, I never knew Corn starch was prohibited, but what do I know? Second, I thought Baking Soda was a major compontent of Baking Powder. But I guess, if no acid, no foul?

I still have a lot of uncertainty and just want to make the best (consistant) Kosher Matzo ball that I can.

Fortunately or not, I have friends with high expectations. OK, yeah, it's fortunate.

But honestly, this is the first time I've heard of Baking power/soda being allowed in Kosher matzo. If allowed as Kosher, there should be no problem.

Thank you dbm,

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Arm and Hammer is kosher and I pretty sure you can get kosher for Passover .  Otherwise get a new fresh Box of BS so no worries.  I distributed Kosher foods and Kosher for Passover from all the manufacturers, ,all over the country.  If you are in NY area you can always go by Streit's, my personal favorite since they are still family owned and operated.  If they don't carry what you want they will tell you where to get it -  plenty of time before Passover.  

http://www.streitsmatzos.com/our-history/

 It is 18 minutes for Matzohs.  A few years ago I posted my WW Matzoh's, Balls and Gefilte fish wrapped in Swiss Chard

My wife andf daughter and half the family are Jewish - I'm not anything anymore.

Any questions about Kosher you can ask your Rabbi.

 

dobie's picture
dobie

Yes, dbm, Streits is my favorite as well (other than homemade).

While I don't have any religeous leader (including all Priests, Rabbi, Shaman and the ilk), I do have friends who do, and so I will ask them to ask them.

Whole wheat Matzo. What could be more authentic? Totally slipped my mind. Thank you for that.

Altho, just because it's Kosher, doesn't give it a pass as unleavened bread, when required. Jews can bake with yeast (in fact, historically have), but not on/for the holidays I'm referring to, which (I believe), Matzo is all about.

Again, I'm just an observer and certainly no authority, but I would love to learn more. My friends (Christians, Jews, Muslims and Heathens alike) just want good soup (Kosher, if possible, please).

If you would like to post the link to your post of a few years ago regarding such, that would be much appreciated. Otherwise, I will search for it myself, but your output is so prolific that it sometimes gets difficult to find the particulars.

Thanks again,

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

csn be found Kosher for Passover some donlt like the idea of breaking the 'spirit' of the unleavened rule.  So I guess it depends on who is coming to dinner.

The thing about Matzohs is that no matter wheat you do to them, you can't make a worse one than what they sell since it is a such a horrible product to begin with..  The best use is for altus, gefilte fish, matzoh balls and my personal favorite, lemon poppy seed cake.  To be more ancient accurate, I suppose they should be made with 100% emmer or sifted emmer.

here is the link

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32810/50-whole-wheat-matzoh

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Thank you so much for the link. Very helpful.

And I agree, making your own matzoh ( and 'balls') is so easy, and so great for kids to be involved in. A great intro to bread baking and soup making.

Definitely going to use some home milled wheat next time. I still can't find a local source for emmer, but it will come. Or eventually I will just order it in over the inner-web.

I do have some feelers out pertaining as to whether or not BS or BP would be allowed in the strictest sense for Passover and such. My Jewish friends can get pretty serious about these things, particularly around the Holidays. I'll let you know whatever comes back to me.

Anyway, thanks again.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

So I have heard back from, in fact, have been phoned back by my 'Local, Neighborhood Jew' friend. He requests to be called 'Bruce' ' if I refer to him on TFL, and so he shall be. He was very curious as to why I was asking such questions, so I explained TFL to him, and thus, all that.

Bruce was quite adament that Baking Soda or Powder are quite prohibited. So, I will go from there. I haven't yet asked him if the whipping of egg whites is allowed, but I will.

He also mentioned things such as 'Jemartria' (of which I know nothing) and that the number 18 is sacred. And that the date of Passover relates to the position of the moon and (I'm sorry but I forget the rest, for now).

We will be getting together this weekend to make some proper Matzoh, with his young step-son in tow, so it should be fun.

And yes, I will bring my WonderMillJr, so that we can grind from grain and thus, the whole experience for Boy. Really good kid, by the way.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

taking parve fees for these products then:-)  By the way Lucy's Matzoh balls don't have BP in them but, as you can see in the mix picture, the egg whites are folded in.  Lucy says that her Matzoh balls are way better the Stu Borken's:-)

 

dobie's picture
dobie

Just a quick update.

We have a blizzard coming, so this weekend was out.

Instead, we got together yesterday. However, we made pizza rather than motzah (my original suggestion when I saw them over the Holidays), which apparently was much anticipated.

His son was fascintated that a Pizza could be topped with anything one wanted. So we made a Spinach/Mozz and a traditional Tomato/Mozz pie.

There was also a Saurkraut, diced Green Olive and American cheese pie. It wasn't nearly as bad as it sounds.

Matzoh will have to wait a few days.

dobie

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

Not Jewish at all here, but a rabid fan of good chicken soup.  I had the good fortune many moons ago to stumble across a PBS program where they featured this little old Jewish granny making Matzoh ball soup.  They went from her slaughtering the chicken out in the barnyard all the way to serving the soup at the table.  One of the things she went on and on about was not compressing the dough too much.  She said light handling made for light Matzoh balls, otherwise you'd end up with rocks.

Is that the experience you folks have had too, that handling of the dough is as important as the ingredients themselves?

dobie's picture
dobie

Mike and dbm

That PBS program sounds great. I will search for it.

And yes, very light touch. I have gone so far as to compare (from the same batch) just spooned in, gently rounded with wet hands and more aggressively rounded as well. The spooned and gently rounded were equal in density and the more aggressive, denser. So I agree, touch is an important dynamic in the process.

Thanks very much. I think I'm going to just make a batch today (because I can't wait any longer) and see how they do.

I will also contact my 'local, neighborhood Jew' for his take on corn, baking soda/powder and acid. I'm sure he will love the assignment.

I will report back.

dobie

TwoBreadedBoy's picture
TwoBreadedBoy

If you aren't so concerned about the spherical shape, a great way to gently handle matzo balls (or dumplings of any kind) is to shape them with two spoons (pick up some dough in one and scrape it off into the soup with the other).

dobie's picture
dobie

TwoBreadedBoy

I've been scratching my brain trying to remember what that technique is called. Is it 'tornado'?

Regardless, it might even be a better shape, being in a bowl of broth.

Thank you

dobie

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

the term you're looking for, for a paste-like mixture shaped between two spoons, is a quenelle.  It's usually a mixture of meat or fish pureed with cream and spices, sometimes breadcrumbs.

Tournedos are small round cuts of meat, mostly tenderloin, cooked in lard.  Nummy stuff!

dobie's picture
dobie

Mike

Yes, quenelle also rings a bell. I believe that is the French word I was searching for.

Toranadose might just be another term for the same. I don't know. Or it maybe as in 'tenderloin' cuts. I clearly mispoke with 'tornado', anyway.

This is just a rather inept attempt at being diplomatic.

I'll have to do some research.

But, thank you.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Everyone here is making it so complicated.  We make about 70 at the holidays and not only for Passover, but, all year long if the grandkids are coming over with parents.  Everyone expects matzah balls with soup.  Sometimes it's the real thing made with old tough big hens with lots of yellow fat on them (skimmed off the soup to be used in making the matzah balls) or sometimes just a matzah ball soup mix which is not made with any meat ingredient, then oil is used in the matzah ball batter not schmaltz...which is the chicken fat.  They are easy and fun to make and always appreciated.  We have one friend who makes them in the boiling water then puts them into a brisket gravy or chicken gravy as the brisket or chicken cooks as a sort of dumpling....which they are.

Sinkers or floaters? That was the question always asked of Grandma Minnie's kneidels [matzah balls] at the first seder. Would her always delicious matzah balls sink to the bottom of her wonderfully rich chicken soup, or would they float delicately over the surface. The answer to the question was never certain; some years they sank with a slightly chewy texture and other years they floated with a melt-in-your-mouth lightness. What causes the difference? It comes from the ratio of eggs to matzah meal and the amount of air whipped into the eggs. Too much oil added to the mix will make them sink, as will removing the cover while they cook.

 

Some of you may like "floaters" and others may like "sinkers." Below you will find some of my favorite matzah ball recipes and some that have been sent or given to me over the years.

My Favoritewas fine.  I also used chicken fat, melted.

 

Preparation Time: 20 minutes

 Chilling Time

 Boiling Time: 30-40 minutes

 

 

4 jumbo egg yolks

 1 tsp. salt

 pinch cayenne pepper

 1 tsp. parsley

 1 tbsp. grated onion

 2 tbsp. vegetable oil (or melted chicken fat, if desired)

 1/2 tsp. parve chicken soup mix (optional)

 4 jumbo egg whites, beaten stiffly

 3/4 cup matzah meal

 

 Beat the egg whites until stiff and set aside. Beat the egg yolks, salt, parsley, onion, oil, pepper, and soup mix until creamy. Fold the egg whites into the egg mixture. Gradually fold in the matzah meal. Cover a

 

 Bring a very large pot of water to a rolling boil. Add about 1 teaspoon of salt to the water. 

 

 With well oiled hands, make small balls about 3/4 inch in diameter. Drop them into the boiling water. Cover the pot tightly and boil for about 30-40 minutes. Don't peek!! Makes about 20.

Matzah Balls With A Twist (Meat)

 

Preparation Time: 20 minutes

 Chilling Time: 1 hour

 Cooking Time: 1 hour

 

 1/2 cup parve margarine

 4 jumbo eggs

 1/4 cup chicken soup

 pinch salt

 3 tbsp. chopped parsley

 1/4 cup chopped spinach, squeezed dry

 1/4 tsp. thyme

 2 tsp. grated onion

 1/2 tsp. sage

 pinch tarragon

 1 cup matzah meal

 pinch white pepper

 

 Beat the eggs well. Add all the other ingredients EXCEPT the matzah meal. Mix well. Add the matzah meal gradually, mix well, cover, and refrigerate for an hour. 

 

 Bring a large pot of water to a boil. Add a teaspoon of salt. With well greased hands, make small balls, about an inch in diameter, and drop them into the water. Cover and simmer for an hour.

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

Thank you for those recipes.

The major distinction I see that differs from what I have done, is adding the matzah last. Hmmm. That could be significant. I will try that (probably this afternoon).

Also, the amount of fat (and I will make this batch with schmaltz) is less than I've previously used, which also might prove significant.

I will leave the additions out for now (other than salt and pepper), just to keep things simple.

Thanks again.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Best of luck with your matza balls. It seems that every Jewish household has their own recipe and each one is claimed to be "The Best One". Enjoy.
stu

dobie's picture
dobie

How true Stu

I'll let you know should I ever find it.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the perfect floater becomes the perfect in sinker if cooked one second  too long.

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Good to know, and I will be careful.

Honestly, the sinker thing is not something I have yet experienced (somehow). They sink as I gently stir them in, but then rise (and so far), remain floating. My problem has been more about how 'open the crumb' is (or how fluffy and lacey) they are.

I'm a little confused about the 'do not peek' advice, tho it is often given. I don't uncover until 20 minutes, when I give a gentle stir and remove one to test. Usually, another few minutes are required (25 minutes total perhaps), but I have had them take as long as 55 minutes. And even then, the crumb (tho floating) was barely passable to my goal.

Don't get me wrong, they are reasonably light, tender and cooked evenly thru, just not as good or consistantly light as from the Deli. And somehow, it doesn't matter the Deli, so, there must a secret.

But you all have given me a lot of advice to try (which I have yet to do, unfortunately), but I will shortly.

Regardless, onward we go.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

So, my mother, of blessed memory, who lived to be 108 years old and lived on schmaltz, fatty meats and heavy cream, not together though.  She made the densest matza balls ever.  These were the ones I grew up with and my kids were first exposed to matza balls like this whenever they ate at her home.  These were the ones we thought were "the normal texture for all other matza balls to emulate".  She insisted she followed the directions on the box of matza meal.  Well, when we followed he directions they came out light and fluffy.  No one could ever figure that out.

Have fun.  Play with your food.  stu

dobie's picture
dobie

Stu

Very sound advice. Please know, I'm just striving, not stressing.

Hmm, good old saturated fat being riden to 108 years old. I understand. There are many populations on this earth with high saturated fat intake in which heart disease barely exists.

It's the hydrogenated transfats of manufacture that'll kill you, in my opinion. Hey, we all place our bets.

Perhaps the secret is not combining meat and dairy? Regardless, a good long life to be sure.

Very funny about the 'back of the box' and 'floaters and sinkers'. I just might be chasing my own tail here, but I will keep at it for a bit.

Honestly, the mistakes I make are quite good, just not as good. Perhaps, I should ask at the Deli.

If I should ever perfect floaters, I might just have to strive for true sinkers. It's all good soup, even with unintended results.

Just a few questions. How do you (and how did your mom) feel about fresh dill (in the balls and/or in the broth), or bits of carrot, celery, onion and/or chicken in the broth?

Thank you Stuart.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

If you make them with spoons you will be shapeing them into pointy end ovals and those are called "tor-an-adose" they are shapped like torpedos.  You don't matza balls looking like that.  You either wet your hands or oil your hands and shape them.

You are such a joy to visit with.  All the problems in the world should be so minor.....

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

Yes, you don't make Matza balls like that, but you do make Matza footballs like that. Even floaters might sit deeper in the broth (and thus stay hotter) by that. Not a bad idea, however untraditional.

Toranadose. Sounds Spanish, when I was expecting French. I make at least one a day (to tuck my older dog's meds into).

Yes, oil or water. I have used both ways, but honestly, with no tracking. Perhaps, another significant dynamic.

There are no minor concerns, only minor consequences (fortunately or not).

Just kidding, and thanks,

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

I think that the way to get consistent light matza balls is to use carbonated soda or carbonated water in the batter.  Otherwise just whipping the egg whites well will do the same.

I like to add fresh dill and lots of it to the soup pot while it's still boiling, just before ladeling it into the bowls.  The dill maintains it's ultra green color and adds a nice flavor.  I also like to chop it up small and add it to the batter for the balls along with black pepper or white pepper and parsley, but, I'm alone on that.

I live in Minnesota so I will give you no sympathy on snow storms.

You talked me into making matza balls and soup for Shabbat dinner tonight.  Already got the challah.

Be well, my on-line friend

stu

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

Really, where's the love, brother? Snow and wind are gonna kick our butts shortly. The worst fear is the possible power outage (but we can get by).

I know, it's nothing like you guys go thru. I've been speaking with embth (one of your fellow Minnesotans) and I am shocked by what you all experience quite more severely and frequently than we do here on the East coast.

And you are not alone about the dill or parsley. I've used them both just as you say, yet I have not used them together; I will not hesitate to do so in the future.

Ahh, but about the bits of veg or chicken in the broth itself, what is the thought? I guess it should just a matter of daily choice.

Let me ask, do you simmer or boil, and is it in the broth of the soup or is it in seperate water with the (foot) balls then being added to the final soup broth at the end? So far, I simmer in water and then add to the finish broth, but those also might be important dynamics.

I don't often have seltzer in the house, but I will whip those whites (a  phrase several of my friends applaud - perhaps too enthusiastically).

Challah process, I will save for another time. On my list, but it's been years (and I am no master).

Any day I might encourage someone to make Matzoh, is a good day.

Enjoy, and thank you Stuart.

dobie

embth's picture
embth

but when big storms hit the East Coast cities, I think "What a waste of good snow!"  We like snow out here and we can make good use of it, snowshoeing, skiing, snowmobiling and dog sledding.  At least, Mother Nature could send the blizzard to Northern New England where snow is also appreciated.  It brings business to ski resorts, restaurants and hotels.  Best of luck, Dobie and all other folks in the path of the storm.  I hope you stay warm and your power stays on.

dobie's picture
dobie

embth

I require one good laugh and one good tear a day, and you have provided the laugh. Thank you so much. The tear will come later, I'm sure.

We will send you as much of this snow as possible.

Secret told, I love a good snow storm. Further secret, I love a good hurricane. I love a good N'or Easter (refering to the storm, not the Holiday). I respect the trials and tribulations of them all.

One, is that we are at the mercy of (and one must act accordingly to) the forces of Nature. Fortunately, we here in NY and the North, are are fairly well prepared for it all. It's the folks further South that I am more concerned about.

But power outages are likely and can be hard on some folks, but we all tend pull together. That is one of the main benifits of such travesties. As we help each other, we learn of each other better.

I am personally prepared for the worst we've yet gotten, and as such, will go as far as my heart (physically) will take me to help others, if in need.

I am not alone in this. It is a great 'community' building experience, the benefits of which we will experience for months, if not years to come (as before). Why we forget these compassions after a few years, I do not know, but I try to keep them in mind always (tho, I'm not always successful).

Well, that said, we'll probably just end up with a dusting. But it could also could be 2 feet of snow and ice. Yet, it is the wind that is most troublesome (and the tide). The downed trees and thus power lines for one thing.

The snow is easy to deal with. The lack of power, not so much.

Back to a more positive note, I love how it slows down (in fact), quiets down the whole world around me.

I love how we come together. I love how it humbles us all.

Hopefully, I will make simple Matzoh ball soup tomorrow and share some around with the older folks.

Thank you for the good wishes.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Your ass is going to get kicked.  Make a pot of hot soup.  Stock up on wood for the fireplace.  Don't run out of vodka, rum, scotch, whiskey, brandy, tequila, and ice....oh yeh, you got ice outside...hee hee hee.  

I finally got fed up with loosing power so just this past fall I had a natural gas full house generator put in place.

When you make real chicken soup with very big and very old chicken (NEVER FRIERS or is it fryers?) you simmer it slowly which cuts down on that grey gunk which we strain off thru fine strainers and cheese cloth to get a really clear soup.  The matza balls are boiled in a pot of water and then added to the soup when it's being reheated for service.  Nobody I know has seltzer water in their houses.

I just got a cell phone call telling me I won a 4 day 3 night free vacation at a Marriott resort I only have to listen to 6 hours of why I should buy a time share there.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Did someone from your home recently request a knee brace or a back brace?  If not, don't hang up because you still might have knee or back pain and we have got something special for you......crap...won't these sollicitations ever stop?  I have a "do not call" number...useless and worthless.

I'm making the matza balls now.  I found some schmaltz in the back of the frig.  I used that in place of oil  I added parsley and dill and black pepper to the matza ball batter.  I also beat the egg whites incuring the wrath of the lady of the house....Thorton Wilder used her for his cartoon, "Women".

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

You are a kick.

I've got a few chores to attend to before the storm, but they are few and I will get back to you shortly.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

Yes, ass will be kicked. Apparently much worse so than anticipated originally.

Shame on me that both you and dbm have made Matzoh and I am still in anticapation. But, that's OK, tomorrow will come.

Unlike many, we have not yet chosen any form of gererator other than my old car, a power invertor and a few extension cords. Keeps us in the game (electric-wise) rather simply. Altho, it won't quite feed the whole house at any one given moment, so we must monitor the draw.

I'm only familiar with Thornton Wilder from 'Our Town', but I'll take your word for it. One of your fellow Wisconsians, if I remember correctly (maybe not, but close by then).

The 'no call lists' (State and Federal) are apparently the most toothless and worthless pieces of legislation that very well represent the pathetic nature of such over the past 15 years. Whatever happened to 'Contempt of Congress'?

So you simmer the bird (as I do, no matter the age), but you boil the Matzoh balls. Interesting. I will give that a try. Generally, with a simmer and some skimming, my broth usually comes out clear, so I'll leave it at that for now.

But man, if I accidently let it get to a boil, all bets are off and filtering could be useful. I remember (years ago), adding a beaten egg (or was it just the White?) to the strained stock, and then strained that, and it did quite well at bringing it back to clear. Something about proteins latching on to proteins, as I recall. I fed the skimmings to the dog, who loved them.

It's not that big of an issue either way to me other than that of finesse.

I've got all the components, and once the storm settles down, I will have the time. I am hours away. Actually, why not make them mid-storm. What else will I be able to do?

I will let you know my exact approach and how it works out.

Thank you Stuart,

dobie

ps - I am completely unfamiar with Wilder as a cartoonist, as well as 'Women'. Any links?

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken


House and Woman - New Yorker Cartoon  By: James Thurber Item #: 12839201  House and Woman - New Yorker Cartoon Premium Giclee Print    

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

Thurber, OK

Very funny.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

stack of Grandma Bell's Matzoh Balls!

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

I do believe you are right.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

carpets cleaned for free and get notified that the IRS is after me and have notified the FBI to pick me up and the Justice Department to bring suit against me probably for making sinker MB's Plus the Microsoft security department has noticed that my computers are somehow infected with harmful stuff.  Let's not forget my grandson in Mexico who has been captured by drug loads who want money to release him.  These people are incorrigible but it is fun to talk to them,

I start of with my I'm so glad you called.  I don't get to talk to many people since my neighbor locked me up in his basement.  I wouldn't give him my bank account information where i keep the Nigerian money skimmed of ffrom the oild industry..........That is about as far as i get before they hang up so I  can't tell you how the story ends .

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

An appropriate typo.

Very funny stuff. You are much more patient than I. Tho, perhaps I will learn yet another lesson (of how to turn misery to fun).

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

Very good advice. I'm not sure where it's going, but it will be a proper chicken soup with perhaps some Matzoh in it. Altho, until I actually do it, it's only a projection. But I am inclined and on the way.

Funny you should say about not running out of supplies. Girl called me last night as she left work asking 'what do we need before the storm'. A half gallon of milk and a dozen eggs to play with, was my answer. Short of fresh fruit and veg, we could live a year or more on our stores (not that we are 'prepers', just prepared).

Anyway, sorry to cut this short yet again, but now I have to go to a friends 'Opening' at our local gallery. I didn't even know he was a painter, but he and his wife are good people (that I know from the 'gardens') and the pic on the announcement looks pretty good, so I've gotta go. Back in a couple of hours.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Normally i only make MB soup once a year or when my wife is really mad at me rather than just being regular mad at me like she normally is:all the time-)

I was going to make stock with all the bones I've been saving up in the freezer.  Just threw a couple of bone in, skin on chicken breasts in there  with the onion, celery and carrot.  After 20 minutes I took out the breasts, de-boned them and put the bones back in the pot with the rest of them and 3 hours later had stock.

Made a couple of white matzohs and chopped them up in the food processor for the balls.  picked 3 spinach and 1 Swiss chard leaf from the garden for them to add with the cayenne and poultry seasoning.  Separated the fat off the stock for the schmaltz and used the stock of the liquid.  Separated the whites from the yolks and whipped them up, no seltzer here either,  After 2 hours in the fridge we simmered the non football balls in separate water and next thing you know we had soup for dinner,  Floaters last night and sinkers for the left overs for lunch today.  With luck you get both kinds.  Yummy they are no matter how they swim.  Best with bourbon or Black Lager - for Stu!

For some reason I can't post a photo.

 

 

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Pretty much as I would do. Spinach and chard is good. Whipped whites, no seltzer, understood.

As well, leave the bourbon for Stu (don't have much of a taste for it myself - but in a pinch...)

I will definitely pay more attention next time around as to if they sink left-over.

Sounds so good.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Don't worry about the photos.

I would just like to point out how invaluable it is for me to read of all the particulars from your (and other's) processes.

If nothing else, it confirms that I am either doing things right (perhaps wrong), and when best, I am corrected or learn new nuances.

I value the effort you (all) make to point this stuff out.

I know it can sometimes be repetitive, but I do learn so much, and I do appreciate it all.

You know, just in case I die tonight.

dobie

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

are there any special tools prescribed for the process?  I Googled "matzoh" and they had pictures of machine-made matzot and a handmade shmura matzoh.

Curiously, the perfectly parallel rows of carmelized blisters were present on both the machine and hand made breads.  So, I was wondering if some kind of ridged rolling pin or the like is used to prepare the dough for baking.

  --Mike

dobie's picture
dobie

Mike

Not to speak for dbm, just for my self.

I do know that when hand/pin rolling matzah (or however you want to spell it), if not pricked, or deckled, they can puff up like a pita might.

Ironically, a sort of leavening of it's own, unless I'm wrong. And commercially made, I have never seen them not deckled.

I'm sure we'll hear with more authority about this, but that has been my experience.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and ridges but I just use a fork for docking and hope for the best, 

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Yes, on both accounts.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

At least you will be encased in snow for all eternity.

dobie's picture
dobie

Stuart

Now, it is you who makes me laugh today.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

I hear you are having a bit of snow.  Like over a foot.....be tough...go out there and shovel it off the driveway and sidewalk and get your ladder and climb onto the roof, use a roof shovel and get it off the roof so it doesn't collapse the roof.  Gather broken branches and saw them into lengths to fit into the fire place to use when the power goes off.  Then you can understand why all our friends are moving away from Minnesota and establishing residence in Arizona.

I have been watching the weather and CNN and you are really getting a wollup.  Don't drive anywhere, yet.

dobie's picture
dobie

Yes, Stuart. It is quite Pompeii-ean out there.

We are at the Northern edge of it, so we are not yet sure what we will get. Upwards of 2 feet projected, but honestly, it is only the wind and tides that concern me. We are high enough from the harbor to not be in direct danger of the tides, but they could have a serious impact on our little community (a bit further down below).

The winds, crashing timber and all that they bring, are our most personal concerns.

Unfortunately, we have not a fireplace nor a proper wood burning stove (they are still yet in the re-model design). But being the cozy cottage it is, even with the power out (which it is not yet, thankfully), with all the big pots simmering on the stove,it would keep us quite warm (as in the past), as well as be the preamble of good Matzoh Ball soup and other concoctions. We could last a week or more under such conditions, which should be more than enough for normalcy to (somewhat) return.

I can generate enough electric from the cars to keep us from suffering too much for too long. But not everyone is so lucky, so we will do our best to dig and help out.

I actually love getting all geared up to be impervious to the blizzard and enter into it at full blow. I am a brave coward.

But at it's worst, it's not as hard as a good winter's day in Minnesota.

Anyway, I do believe the Balls are on their way today. I will post pics, if they show up.

Thanks for the concern.

dobie

ps - there will be no driving (other than the snow) as well as no climbing of ladders to the roof. The later, might necessitate the former to the Emergency Room.

dobie's picture
dobie

OK, I can no longer wait for the power to go out and will suffer thru this with the power on.

After all this thought and discussion, I am finally ready to make some Motzah balls.

My mess is in place (mise en place) and here is my plan.

4 eggs to 1 cup meal. Whites whipped stiffly. 2 Tb schmaltz, S&P.

Simmered (not boiled), 30 minutes before lid peeked for a test.

Sounds simple enough, and a blend of advices.

Any last thoughts, I've got about 10 minutes until go time.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to give it extra flavor like we do with bread Toadies or whole aromatic seeds.  I use 1 T of Schmaltz and 1 T of stock for each egg too.  Get some flavor in those balls besides S&P with a chopped fine scallion and spinach and some cayenne to give it some punch.  Plain bagels are well.....pretty plain and Matzohs are no different:-) 

Here is a picture of the last of day 3 MB's we had for lunch - I call then Super Sinkers!  i'm using the left over soup for my killer DaBrownman's Mexican Beans with Ham Hock or smoked turkey necks if you are Jewish.....having tacos tonight 

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Perfect picture of a perfect soup...a little food artistry there maybe?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

ever made for sure and Matzoh porn it is even though just the way it came out of the microwave after 4 minutes:-)  MW's don't get enough credit when it comes to food artistry.  I think the soup was more tasty on day 3 but the MB's were better on day 1 - the looks were way better on day 3 too - No fat at all on the surface for some reason today.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken


globalindustrial.com - Global Industrial a Systemax company

Call us 7 days a week

1.888.978.7759Click to Chat0 Items - ($0.00)All Return to Category ListHome Foodservice & Appliances Food Preparation Baking Supplies Roller DockerUpdate International Roller Docker W/Stainless Steel Handle, 8"L x 6"W x 2-1/2"H, RD-5 - Pkg Qty 24Update International Roller Docker W/Stainless Steel Handle, 8"L x 6"W x 2-1/2"H, RD-5 - Pkg Qty 24 Print

Item #: T9FB1230628

Sold By: globalindustrial.com

Usually ships in 4 to 7 days 

0 reviews | Write a review

$14.00 each

Sold in packages of 24

Price: $336.00Calculate Shipping
dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you for that Stuart.

It does look nice, but I think I'll stay with the multi-tasking fork for now.

This might be hard to believe, but it is true. I don't know where I would store it. Our cozy cottage is like living on a ship. No superfluous space. As I like it.

dobie

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

sounds correct.  be sure to let the batter sit in the frig or on the counter for at least 20 minutes then with wet hands form the balls and drop into boiling water and boil for 30 minutes without looking.

dobie's picture
dobie

Yes Stuart

Meal gently folded in last.

I will give it 30 min in fridge before forming.

I will probably form half gently with watered hands, half with oiled hands, just to see if there is a difference.

I will probably form out on a plate, so that they all go in more or less at the same time.

And, yes, into boiling water, then put to simmer and no peeking for 30 minutes.

Thanks,

dobie

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

Does a retard that long violate the 18-minute rule?

Or does that only apply to the actual first bake of the matzoh itself?

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

Matza is available to be bought and eaten all year long.  No restrictions on how it's made.   But, the matza which is bought and eaten during the Passover week must be made in the special way in which the guarded closely watched flour never is in contact with water until the process of making the matza starts.  From the instant water is mixed with the flour no more than 18 minutes may pass before the flash baking in the 1,000 degree oven occurs.  Shmura, or hand made matza, is a style shown in this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGggRN8jGRM

The 18 minutes is the time it takes for yeast to awaken and begin to raise the dough and to the orthodox Jewish community that raising of the dough is what is wanting to be avoided so the baking must occure before the rising begins.  Eating any matza is like eating crunchy cardboard.  Not so great.  Smearing it with lots of butter helps, as does soaking it in well seasoned egg like for French toast and then frying it up is also helpful.

dobie's picture
dobie

From everything I have heard, read and seen, Stuart is absolutely right. 18 minutes is only about the matza itself and not the balls.

I have heard tho, that salt is allowed (Kosher, of course) which helps, and that in some communities, they are made thicker, more like a flat bread.

Sorry to fall off the face of the earth for a couple of days. We did get our 2 ft (or slightly more) of snow and high winds as projected. We never lost power thankfully, but we did lose cable (and thus, internet for about 24 hrs).

Yesterday was all about digging out, so I was just too tired to even think of going online, so here is my belated report on my matza ball experiment.

Unfortunately, I failed to find that ellusive matza ball of love. What I produced was much the same as I ever did before. Quite nice, but not perfection.

Using schmaltz was definitely a good idea tho. It clearly added flavor.

Gently forming with wet or oiled hands, didn't seem to make a difference.

For some reason, this batch required a longer simmer (55 minutes), altho I didn't so much as peek or stir for the first 30.

I think I misunderstood what you all were saying about floaters and sinkers. I thought you meant as they simmered, but have come to realize you probably meant once in a bowl of broth. If so, these were sinkers, tho they floated thoughout the simmer (and sank when I took off the lid and turned off the heat).

Regardless, they were quite good. Sorry, no pics, too much else going on.

I do have a plan for another try. I forgot to mention in my list of ingredients, the 1/4 cup of stock, sorry. But my plan is to further reduce the stock to a more gelatineous state and use a little more of it (perhaps reducing the egg a bit).

Theory being that the gelatineous stock (probably added jelled) might provide some structure that will melt away once the egg has set. It's a stretch, but an idea.

Hopefully, that will be today.

Thank you everyone,

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

That long cook time will make any MB a sinker for sure.  When you first put the balls in the water they sink in about 3 minutes or so they should float,  If you simmer them much longer than 20 minutes they will sink again.  If you need 30 minutes to get them done on the inside then the MB are being made way too big.  Ping pong to golf ball size since they are going to increase in size about double as they simmer.  They will float in the soup too.  Day two they will be sinkers and day 3 they will be sunk.  It is how much time they spend in hot liquid that makes them sink after they float to the top at the 3 minute mark max.

Still they had to be tasty dobie!

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Yes, please don't get me wrong. They were quite fine.

When I first put them in the water, they sink immediatley. But they also rise to the top just about as quickly.

Usually, I have tested at 20 minutes. Finding 23 - 25 to be done. But it is alway a crap shoot. Sometimes double. I don't know why. This time it was to 30 and then nearly double to be cooked thru. Again, I don't know why.

At the least, I am looking for repeatability of decent matza balls. Ultimately, the same for some of the fine. I'll see what happens. I haven't given up yet.

I'm thickening my stock, and we'll see what happens.

And, yes, I agree, that larger than the ping pong balls to start (that become golf ball size), would require different times. My tests (even this one), prove that out. I did make a few medium and a few large, and they took way longer (upwards of 2 hours) to cook thru.

We'll see what happens. I'll get back.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

So I took a bit of a gamble with the egg and chilled gelatineous chicken stock in my Matzoh ball recipe.

I cracked two eggs and they came to about 100g total. So I beat the whites stiff and folded in the beaten yolk and 100g of very chilled, gelatineous stock. Folded in one cup of Matzoh meal, about 1 Tb schmaltz and 1 ts Kosher salt. I let it chill in the fridge for about 30 minutes.

I formed the balls with a  small scoop (ping pong ball or slightly smaller) on to a plate and then dropped them into boiling water.

There was a lot of disintegration, but some balls actually remained intact. Why some and not the others, I have no clue. Tho, I might have faired better had I dropped them into simmering water rather than boiling.

I actually never got the lid on as it was all just unfolding (and disintegrating) in front of me. It quickly reduced itself to a simmer, and I reduced the heat to maintain that. It was a very short cook, 10 minutes at most, and I don't even think that.

The Matzoh balls that survived, were in fact true floaters (in a bowl of broth). They were light, and open crumbed and 'lacey'. Much closer to what I am looking for.

My next try will be the same, but with 2 Tb of schmaltz (I only used 1 Tb because I ran out) and I will use 3 eggs rather than 2 and otherwise, keep it the same, altho entered into simmering water.

Anyway, I think some progress was made with the chilled thick stock component.

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

my recipe is 1 C MM, 4T schmaltz, 4 T of stock and 4 eggs separated with the white beaten to near stiff mix gently and refrigerate for 2 hours.  More liquid and whites will make MB light just like little green rosettahs will make your muffins taste bettah.

No boiling water and ditch the scoop.  Gently roll into ball in your hand so it stays together.  Now worries - floaters every time even when the size of a golf ball going in the water. 

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

I remember Zappa.

I can ditch the scoop.

Gentle like a tree growing off of my shoulder.

I know it is easy, but also difficult.

Your recipe is sound, and under advise.

Thank you, as always

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

my recipe is 1 C MM, 4T schmaltz, 4 T of stock and 4 eggs separated with the white beaten to near stiff mix gently and refrigerate for 2 hours.  More liquid and whites will make MB light just like little green rosettahs will make your muffins taste bettah.

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

My wife's aunt sent us the cook book from her synagogue sisterhood in Naples, Fla.  The perportions are the same.  They don't beat the whites of the egg separately.  They also add a few extras like some paprika, 2 tb grated onion and a little ginger and nutmeg.  If you have a bottle of soda water you could substitute that for the stock and I hear it makes the matza balls lighter.  I never tried it.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

along with some, scallions, fresh spinach and Swiss Chard chopped fine in mine.  The moisture is released from the fresh veg making steam and the MB lighter.  The green of the veg gives the MB some color and makes them more visually appealing.  The seasoning gives the MB some flavor.  Without these additions the MB are a lot like Matzoh - tasteless, unappetizing and not a a very good product. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

What is matzoh meal?

Got it... bread crumbs, one of my specialties.   There is not enough liquid in the recipe. Not enough steam producing items in the recipe to expand the dumplings.  More glue and more steam is needed.  

Mix yolks and fat together, add stock and liquids.  Should be a lumpy soup.  Combine all dry ingredients together before adding to egg/liquid/fat mixture.  Barely mix. Cover and chill the goo letting the dry ingredients soak up the wet.  When that is done, form balls.  Test one before doing all of them.   If it falls apart they need more flour.  See if these tips  help.  :)

If you like the mixture but they keep falling apart, try frying them first in oil and then dropping the hot crispy balls into a bowl of water (or broth) to soak up.  Once swollen, remove to a soup bowl and cover with soup.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Boiled Matzoh balls are bad enough but frying the balls before boiling them is just way over the top:-)

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

You need to get to a grocery store with a Jewish clientele who would support a section of the store serving the Jewish customers.  In that section you would find matzoh and matzoh meal which is the sheets of matzoh which have been ground up into a meal the size of very coarsely ground pepper.  If it's ground finer it's called cake meal.  You use matzoh meal for matzah balls.  There is a 100% passable product made by Manechewetz called Matza Ball and Soup Mix which turns out 9 perfect matzah balls and a nicely seasoned broth of 10 cups.  I add a few stalks of sliced up celery, a couple carrots sliced into discs and maybe a small diced onion.  Fresh dill tossed into the broth just before serving is also nice.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I will find you a true and tested recipe but many of these are "Feel" recipes with lots of "aha" moments.  

Think surface contact and reactions to heat and water.  And don't forget the negative or air spaces in the ingredients.  Steam will soften the crumbs, the crumbs don't have to be sopping wet with egg gotch, just lightly coated.  Egg just coats the outside and binds with the fat, the flour makes the glue when it sticks to the liquids so be fast about it. Fat and steam tenderise the crumbs.  

You guys sure are sensitive when it comes to dumplings.  Just grab your MBs and go for it.  :)

dobie's picture
dobie

Mini

That is a wild and great idea. I don't know if it will fly by Passover, but I can ask.

Very profound advice that I will contemplate deeply.

It is not my own sensitivity, rather to accomodate my friends, by which I am concerned. I'm sure it would be much easier otherwise.

I do appreciate the very good thought and technique. Regardless of Passover, I think I will try that anyway.

You are right. Essentially, it's all just dumplings. But I think that with Matzoh balls, the egg is wrapped around each and every crumb throughout. And that is where I'm failing.

So, maybe you are right that it only has to be 'dipped/coated' in egg. I will explore that theory. Yes to steam, and all that.

My mind is open, tho my friends standards might not be quite so.

Regardless, thank you very much,

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the MB's first makes all the sense in the food world since 'brown food tastes good' as Anne Burrell likes to say.  She has her own different kind of MB that she too fries before braising here

 http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/anne-burrell/excellent-meatballs-recipe.html.  

Stuart Borken's picture
Stuart Borken

One of our friends boils up a batch and places them into the gravy of a pot roast as the roast cooks.  It picks up the flavor of the gravy and is served along with the potatoes and vegetables.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

dried bread like leftover baguette (with a bold bake) or a favourite weekly bread.  Add a little salt, nutmeg and parsley...  Is it kosher to toast all or part of the matzoh meal before using?  That might boost the flavour too.

dobie's picture
dobie

Sorry for the delay guys. I was out of the house all yesterday and never got to the forum at all.

You all are bringing some mighty fine refinements to the table. And once I get my ideal base down, I will explore them all.

Mini - interesting thought about using bread crumbs. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't fly for passover, but it's not all about the Holidays.

I've been reading a book called 'Making Artisan Pasta' by Aliza Green and she has a chapter on dumplings and such that includes a recipe for 'Passatelli'.

It's very much along the lines of what you suggest. Essentially, bread crumbs, eggs, Parmesan, fat and flavorings. Extruded thru a ricer (much like Spaetzle) and simmered in broth.

I imagine it would also make a fine 'ball' dumpling.

Frying, and browning is very interesting as well.

Stu, uses in other than soup are sound also. With pot roast sounds great.

dbm, not only are fresh herbs tasty and colorful, but you might be onto something regarding the moisture they would release within the balls.

I've got another test coming today, and I am hoping it will get me where I want to be so that I can start playing with all these fine variations.

Thank you all for the advice.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Just a quickie.

I did much as I said I would except I went back to the more traditional recipe of 4 eggs to 1 cup meal. I also added about 2 TB chopped parsley. I figured that since herb was going to be a standard ingredient, why not introduce it now. They were done in 35 minutes (no peek or stir for the first 20).

But I must say, using chilled, very gelatinized stock, now seems to be a key to light and fairly lacey floaters. Not that it is the only one, I am still searching.

I'm out of meal now, but will make some more this week, to further refine and test.

Thanks again everybody.

dobie