The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

No Recipe Dare

dobie's picture
dobie

No Recipe Dare

TFLians, this thread will probably be quite boring to most (and is mostly for my own benefit), so please, go no further if not inclined.

Bread1965 had a thread about a week and a half ago regarding FWSY vrs Tartine. It was an interesting conversation, yet for some reason, I made the dare to make a 'No Recipe' bread and promised that I would do the same. So, here it is.

I have just started the process, but I promise I will post pics, win or lose.

For me, the rules are - no machinary other than an oven. A bowl or two and a pan perhaps, but otherwise, all by hand. No weights, no measures (not so much as a scoop or a spoon), no KitchenAid, no thermometer or anything else. Originally, I had intended to use my Kamado as a wood fired oven, but it's finally gotten cold here in NY and I'm a little under the weather, so I renege on that for now.

Part of the challenge is to declare the intent before the process begins. I missed that by a little bit, as I have already started a quick levain, but I will describe where I intend it to go (and why).

I am looking to achieve a proper, somewhat 'fluffy' (fairly open crumb) sandwich loaf from a proper bread pan. The bread should be fairly well chocked with seeds and bran and various things that make Girl happy, but still be fairly light and sandwich-able.

I will post more details in a bit (again, if only for my own benefit).

If anyone else is in a similar process (or cares to start), please feel free to tack on to this thread.

dobie

baybakin's picture
baybakin

This sounds like a great challenge to help a person fully listen to what the dough is telling us.

I might take you up on this, but do a free-form sourdough loaf, no measuring in making the starter either.

dobie's picture
dobie

baybakin

Yes, it is all about listening along the way.

At first blush, I was going to say 'No, the starter is the sacred mother'. And even tho I did weigh out my feed, I suspect you are right. After a while, you (I and we) will all pretty much know what the particular hydration of the starter should look and feel like. And thus, the dough as well.

The in-exactness of the exact (aka - feel).

Thanks for the response. And if you do so endeavor, please let me know.

Again, tack on here if you would like.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Just to myself

This AM, I took my starter out of the fridge to come to room temp. As it needed a feed, I did so. Within a few hours in the 85F proofer, it proofed to 150%.

In a bowl, I added a good six handfuls of Bread flour (I suppose I'm allowed that measurment). Perhaps 2 hands of corn flour, two of oat germ and 1/2 hand of millet (hulled). I reserved about half of that flour mix and added half of my fresh fed starter (also, about 2 hands full) and enough water to that half of the flour mix, so to make it even a little wetter than a normal 100% hydration starter. I figured the corn, millet and germ was going to soak up quite a bit of water.

Note to self; First mistake. Unfortunately, I added the salt at this time and thus retarded my levain unintentionally. I was so worried about freeballing the salt (more so than any other ingredient) that I must have just become fixated on it to the point of making this error. Lesson learnt.

So, with a little more time, the levain is now bubbly. Now I will go build a proper dough, adding the other half of the beginning flour mix and what I would consider a generous amount of Active Dry Yeast. I do believe this is my first hybrid yeast dough, but I could be wrong.

With that, is added Semolina to form a proper dough. I project that after a few Stretch and Folds, I will add a good handful of Sesame seeds and then Sunflower seeds and a half hand of Pumpkin seeds as well. No knives allowed (by the Rules), so they will go in whole.

I will get back to myself shortly.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Note to self

So I did pretty much as I expected. Altho, I added a good handful of Sunflower seeds, the same of Sesame and a half of Pumpkin seeds with the remainder of the original flour mix to the pseudo-levain. It just seemed they would incorporate better that way, and I couldn't think of why I wouldn't do it, so I did. With the addition of two good hands full of semolina, it made up to a proper dough.

Then, the usual rest, S&F, rest and repeat, etc for probably about 4 times. At which point I split the dough into two (another un-nerving experience for me), then tensioned and placed them in buttered, cornmealed Pyrex pans. OK, so one will be a little smaller than the other. but they seem to be sized pretty close to right.

They are now in their final proof and should be baking in one and a half hours or so. So far, so good.

Just to remind myself what I did.

dobie

Matt H's picture
Matt H

I was starting to think I was the only one around here who still makes bread like this, the way our great grandmothers did!

I'm making bread at home for my own enjoyment, so I'm not so worried if it's a little inconsistent. So I throw various flours and grains into a bowl with water and yeast or levain and a some salt, and it almost always comes out great. :)

dobie's picture
dobie

Hi Matt H

 I checked your profile and see you have been here a good long while. Halleluja, another like mind.

The more I have followed recipe after recipes, the more I have come to understand that they are all (in essence) much the same, the variations sometimes being minuit.

Thus, by feel, is significance.

Thanks for the response,

dobie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

at 100% hydration with walnuts, rye berry scald, sunflower and squash seeds with anise, coriander, fennel and caraway aromatic seeds..... that is currently in the oven, qualify?

I'm not expecting a huge holes but i xpect a better loaf then the no starter pumpernickel brick I baked last week.  I had to use a mill to make the flour, a scale to weigh water and flour and a bowl and spoon to stir it and the big old GE 'Betsy' to bake it since it was only 60 F today. 

Zappa said 'sexual gratification can only be achieved by the use of machines' but what did people achieve before machines?    Pain and Misery?  I'm into no machines, tiny, low noise, less abuse, more freedom, fewer baking apprentices and rye or less brickish pumpernickel bread. 

Touchy fealty is way better than no touch and no fealings when it comes to most things worth having and holding dear.

Happy baking dobie.  

PS Dobie reminds me of Dobby and Dobby reminds me that Professor Snape died today.  Being alive is better than being dead I'm guessing.  May he rest in peace!

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Your have used the forbidden 'spoon' and therefore must suffer a life time ban.

Obviously, I'm just kidding. The whole point of this exercise (for me anyway), is to remember to loosen up (and explore where I tighten up) and experiment as it seems you and Lucy do (if not every day, then) twice a week at least.

Mills are to be expected. Just put down the spoon, and (of course) scales are verbotten.

dobie

ps - I'm still so far away from 100% Rye, but it's coming. Good to know you can lay an occassional brick now and then. Not so good for you, but I feel a little less intimidated by the process for that fact.

dobie's picture
dobie

dbm

Yes, I suppose it always better to pick the daisies, then have them pick you.

RIP Alan Rickman.

dobie

bread1965's picture
bread1965

There's a great line by Santana - Let the music set you free (or at least that's who I attribute it to).. so I decided to adopt that as the theme for this bake challenge.. but I must admit Dobie, you're freaking me out with this one.. I'm fighting every urge I have to go read any number of books to look at ratios and sneak a recipe peak to help.. but I wont!  I also have to admit, given the star wars mania that's going on, I was going to make like DV and say "dough... I am your father" in my subject line... but I thought the Santana quote wouldn't be as dorky! Not that there's anything wrong with dorky - some of my best friends are! :)

Ok.. A bowl, a stove and a dutch oven.. I'm going to make white with whole rye, using my white flour starter (which I'm going to start feeding tonight with a 1:2:2 ratio  (eyeballing it) to get back up to it's usual yeasty goodness). I don't think I have anything that I'd like to add in terms of nuts or seeds in the house.. but when I raid the pantry I might change my mind based on what I find.  I'll use the tartine method .. I'll bake sunday and post then...

But wait.. am I allowed to use the fridge? You said oven only? I was thinking of a  saturday cold overnight ferment.. Let me know, I'll change plans if necessary and find a cold spot in the house instead if not.. or just leave it on the counter and add less levain..

Great idea.. thanks for pushing me into this direction.. or should i say daring me..

bake happy.. bread1965

dobie's picture
dobie

Bread1965

That's a great response. Yes, Santana will set us free as well.

I am tickled that I am freaking you out. I am only offering you what I suffer thru. And it is a bitch, isn't it?

But of course, no cheating.

I do think we could allow for a fridge retard if it were otherwise not possible. Maybe shave off a point if it's only for convenience.

I kept reaching for the spoon measures myself (but I did not touch them). The yeast and the salt were particularly stressfull. More so the salt, tho. Under or over sucks so bad. Yeast and time are more forgiving.

Don't forget, the only competition is in the method. What ever bread you choose to strive for is no better or worse than any other. It is all about intent, after all.

Please, make up your own rules. It is all in good fun.

Glad you are on board and suffering so ;-)

dobie

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

the salt.  However, arthritis has forced me to use the KitchenAid to knead the dough.  When I bought the KA many years ago, I sneered at the dough hook, saying I'll never use that.  Well, stuff happens.

dobie's picture
dobie

Hi PaddyL

OK, you, and you alone get a pass (just kidding). Anyone with upper body issues gets a pass (in this 'dare') to use a stand mixer (or whatever). This is not a challenge of physical suffering, rather, the suffering of the mind. That, I believe, we all share in common.

I think that your challenge (much as mine) could be in freeballing the salt. It's a very scary thing.

Reading forward to Lazy Loafer's post, there might be some truth to the 'hands in' process possibly being theraputic. But it's all very much up to the individual. Home rules apply.

Regardless, you can always challenge yourself (and myself) by putting down the weights and measures and daring to make dough bare of a recipe, but full in thought. Even with a stand mixer, it still counts.

It's all good and I mean this very kindly.

dobie

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I'm liking this line of thought. Just recently, I've started mixing almost all my doughs by hand in a big bowl, instead of smaller batches one at a time in the KA. I have a bit of arthritis and found it difficult to mix with a spoon but plunging both hands into the dough and mucking about with it works much better. I can feel the temperature of the dough that way as well, though I do wear vinyl gloves (got a bit of baker's dermatitis too). I made one batch a week or so ago where I decided to measure the temperature of the water (I don't usually but was curious) and then forgot to weigh it and just dumped it in to the flour mixture. I started to panic but then just got in with my hands and went by feel, adding a touch more flour by instinct. It turned out more than fine, really. We just have to learn to trust those old instincts, I guess!

dobie's picture
dobie

LL

Very interesting stuff. But no gloves allowed.

Just kidding, of course. Personally, I did make a point to go gloveless, but that was just because it had been so long since I did so.

I will respond to the rest in the morning. It's just too late for now.

dobie

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

I see cookbooks, especially bread books, as idea books, so I hardly ever go by a recipe.  It's a dollop of this, a handful of that, and maybe I'll try a bit of this.  When I was in Ireland last year, using a dodgy old oven, I simply put together some bread and it came out beautifully.  If you know how the dough should feel and look and behave, then you're good to go.  Mind you, it was rather painful doing the kneading by hand!

PalwithnoovenP's picture
PalwithnoovenP

I always bake without measurements even temperatures! The technical aspects of baking is the part that bores me a little, even just rolling dough to right dimensions bothers me; I just think that it really takes some fun out of baking as a home baker without an oven but I still think measurements and technical knowledge really makes professional baking easier. I wish I could join, my cupboard is practically empty at this time.

dobie's picture
dobie

Sorry for the delay, I'm fighting a nasty cold.

Regardless, as promised (win or lose), here are the results.

All in all, it went pretty well. It is fairly moist, soft and tender (considering the ingredients) and does in fact make a fine sandwich loaf. It can also be sliced quite thin.

So the No Recipe recipe worked to be (in hands full and pinches);

6 Hands Bread flour

2 H Starter

Sufficient water (probably a little less than 2 cups)

2 H Corn flour

2 H Oat germ

2 H Semolina

1 H Sunflower seeds

1 H Sesame seeds

1/2 H Millet

1/2 H Pumpkin seeds

1 Heavy pinch of ADYeast

1 Heavy pinch Salt

For all my worry about the Salt, it worked out well. Not too much, nor too little.

I don't know why the arching of the bottom crust happened, but if anyone knows, I would love to find out. The only thing I can think of is that I took them out of the pans and onto racks immediatly from out of the oven, with no rest first.

The flavor is wonderfully satisfying. Very nutty and with a slight sour.

There was the strong aroma of Yeast when it came out of the oven, but by morning when I cut it open, that had dissipated. I used generous Yeast compared to my normal, but with the high percentage of grain and seed (and the desire for a loaf in 1 day), I thought it appropriate.

I like it well enough that I will now try to formalize a recipe of it by weight for purposes of repeatability and passing on to friends.

To those of you who bake like this all the time, my hat is off to you.

Bread1965, looking forward to your results.

dobie

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Dobie..

That is one fine loaf! It's hard to believe that you've never done this before! Impressive list of ingredients and an impressive looking crumb! You should be very happy!

Here's my update.

On Friday night I fed my starter 1:2:2 eyeballing the measurements. It's been underfed and unloved. I've had my starter (Charlie) on a gluten free diet this past two weeks as I hadn't gotten around to feeding him. I also have a jar of rye starter in the fridge which I haven't touched for about 7/8 weeks and a jar of white flour starter that for some reason I much prefer working with. I need to get over that.

Anyway, I fed Charlie Friday night and yesterday I ended up making my dough around 3pm. I eyeballed some white flour and as I like rye added some whole rye to it - maybe about 25%. It didn't occur to me that I should "hand measure" as you did.  I haven't baked much more than two loaves with rye flour in the past, so I probably added too much. I ended up adding more and more water until I got to a point I was comfortable with. But it seemed pretty heavy and dense so I was concerned.  I left it for half an hour.

I came back to it and added a bit more water with my levain to help it incorporate better. I added some sea salt and I let it rest. As I was permitted by the rules, I used my oven! Light on of course! My starter tasted pretty sour yesterday morning and I'm not a super sour, sour dough guy. I folded the dough every half hour for three and a half hours, between which the covered dough bowl sat in my oven with the light on - the warmer temp to promote yeast development and reduce the sour taste of the stater.  I then put it in the fridge overnight.

As I looked at it just now there isn't much rise in the dough, but the bottom of the (glass) bowl shows lots of bubbles so I think I'm good. After a bit more coffee (for me not the dough),  I'll place it on my board, shape it into two loaves (I realize I probably used too much flour so I think I need to divided my dough). I thought of making one big loaf but I'm concerned that the rise might be sacrificed by the size/weight of the dough given I used whole rye. Not sure if that's a legitimate concern. Once proofed , I'll bake. I'll cut open a loaf with dinner and let you know how I've done after that when I can get you a crumb shot too! Lets see! It's anyone's guess... bake happy!

dobie's picture
dobie

Bread1965

Sounds like you are well on the way to a successful bake. If you're seeing bubbles thru the bottom of the bowl, it's probably going to work out fine.

I've done many Dare bakes before, but never for a bread like this.

I've baked bread similar to this, but always from a recipe that I would then bastardize a little bit. I've also baked with all those ingredients before, but never all together.

And I've never baked one with such a high percentage of 'heavies'.

Also, the thought only crossed my mind this morning that I could have tasted the dough once together and add more salt if needed in the S&Fs. Live and learn.

Good luck, looking forward to your results.

dobie

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Dobie..

Well... the salt was lacking, but nothing a bit of salted butter couldn't cure. The rise and crumb was 'ok' but doesn't look entirely right. The flavour was just 'ok' too - probably the weakest element due to the lack of salt.  It wasn't complex/interesting.  But I think I need to re calibrate my oven temp though. I should have probably baked just one loaf, but after I shaped the two boules I thought best to leave well enough alone and bake them even though they were a little smaller than normal.  I baked them with the lid on for 30, and then after about 7 with the lid off it looked like it was starting to burn so I took them out after about 10 minutes with lid off.  Normally I'll go until 20 minutes or more with the lid off. And in fact the bottom was indeed a bit burnt. This is now the same issue as my last tartine bake. So I think I have an oven problem. I was making pizza at 500 with broil on before my tartine back and popped the oven circuit. It's not been the same since.   I really appreciate you pushing me into this direction. I has been very fun and I've learned about how to look at bread making from a different perspective. I think the one thing I really have learned from the dare is that dough is much more forgiving than I had appreciated. When following recipes, the perfectionist in me is trying to ensure I have weights correct to the gram - clearly not as necessary as a recipe with that much granular detail would lead you to believe! All in all, very fun regardless of how nerve racking it was going into it!! Thanks dobie!

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

The crumb was a bit more moist than I'm use to tasting.  I probably had a bit more water in it than I should have. And with taking it out after only ten minutes of lid-off baking, I couldn't get the internal temp higher to dry it out without burning the crust.  You can tell how soft the crumb was by the slices. I also think that the crumb holes lead me to believe I had too much levain in the dough, or alternatively left it too long to develop - it could be the warmer temp in the oven on Saturday developing too much yeast as part of it too. But again, all in all.. fun and very worth while. Thanks again.. bake happy! 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Dobie, that looks delicious! That must give you a good sense of satisfaction.

Question - why the corn flour?

dobie's picture
dobie

LL

Corn flour was mostly because I had it laying around from an experiment last weekend (just to see if my mill could grind it).

I've used it before in bread like this and liked the tooth feel. Something to chew all the way down, altho this was ground a little too fine for that. But the semolina and millet stepped up for that.

The more I've been eating it, the more convinced I am that it is the sesame seeds that really give it the nutty flavor. I am tempted to even boost the percentatage next time.

The greatest satifaction (other than that it pretty much came out as I intended), was that I got the salt right.

Next time I will bake what ever Dare dough in my pseudo WFO (with no thermometer, of course). That will be quite a challenge for me.

Thanks

dobie

embth's picture
embth

hand made bread.  Great baking!

dobie's picture
dobie

Thank you embth

It came out as I intended but better than I hoped for.

dobie

baybakin's picture
baybakin

Checking back in, here's my no-recipe, no-measuring bread! I was shooting for something around "rustic country sourdough." Levian was about half and half white flour and half stone ground wheat, mixed to what felt like 100% hydration or so (this half and half AP/Whole wheat is my typical feeding schedule, more measured of course), fermented overnight, then mixed in the morning.  I added an amount of blood-warm water that seemed right, then AP flour until a shaggy dough was formed, and left it to autolysis.  Meanwhile I boiled some water and put it over an amount of coarse grey salt, and mixed that into the dough after 30 mins or so (double hydration method).  The dough ended up around 80% hydration to my reckoning.  Risen in a cane basket, and baked in a dutch oven like I typically do.

I haven't opened it up yet, but it feels like has a good airy crumb. The salt amount was really stressful.

 

bread1965's picture
bread1965

What surprises me is how some great bread makers double as great food photographers! Great lighting! :)  It truly looks fantastic. Great job!

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Look at my loaf picture above, and then look at yours.. what flour did you use of your cane basket before you put the loaf in? Yours seems so much nicer than mine in terms of the amount of flour stuck to the loaf. Did you use rice flour perhaps? I used AP white. I appreciate I could have brushed off some of the flour after the loaf cooled, but I don't think much would have come off.. thoughts?

baybakin's picture
baybakin

I used a combination of brown rice flour, and wheat bran (left over from sifting some whole wheat flour to make high-extraction flour).  I've found this keeps it from sticking to the basket very well.

dobie's picture
dobie

baybakin

Come on, you scanned that pic out of a book.

Totally kidding. My god, beautiful.

Can't wait to see the money shot (and recieve my slice in the FedEx tomorrow morning).

Double hydration salination. How risky. I don't know if the score cards go up high enough for that.

For intent, difficulty and accomplishment, so far, 10's across the board for me.

Now, the wait for the crumb shot. But I have no doubt it will be great.

Wonderful scoring and spring by the way.

Great job.

dobie

gerhard's picture
gerhard

in a bakery I would be tempted to buy it.  Really great looking loaf.

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Gerhard

Buy or buy not, there is no temptation.

Just a Yoda joke.

I would buy it in a flash.

dobie