January 1, 2016 - 11:37pm
Brioche help? Underdeveloped gluten?
Hi all,
First post, apologies if this is a noob question.
I've made a few attempts at making brioche, and each time, it ends up crumbly instead of bread-like.
My general process is:
Mix all ingredients except butter
Autolyse 30 mins
Knead till dough comes together in a horrible sticky mess (no amount of time seems to help this step)
Add room temp butter
Slap/stretch knead (until dough comes together, very soft and smooth)
From here, at about 20 minutes of kneading, it doesn't seem to improve. That is, pass a strong windowpane test.
Refrigerate overnight
Divide
Flatten
Proof to double size
Bake
I'm pretty sure the answer is more gluten development, but at what step can it be achieved?
Thanks for any help!
Share
Can you post the recipe that you use? Are you measuring by volume or weight?
Most brioche recipes should form a workable and not too sticky dough before the butter is added.
Sorry, I should have included that!
1.75 cups bread flour
2 eggs
1/2 cup milk
2 Tb sugar
1 tsp yeast
1 tsp salt
Butter (tried from 75-125g, seems to yield similar crumbly results)
It's hard to tell exactly, as the amounts you use are in volume. It's much better to use weight:
http://www.joyofbaking.com/WeightvsVolumeMeasurement.html
If I assume the amount of flour you use is apx. 250g (8.75 ounce), then those amounts seem OK.
I'll consider removing one egg white or an entire egg.
You can also try to use cream or sour cream instead of milk, and slightly reduce the amount of butter, I'll use about 60g of butter if doing so.
...then it does not need more gluten development (you are getting a super-stretchy window that doesn't tear, right?).
In essence, there's nothing wrong with these brioche; they're just not the type you want to bake. If there was such a thing, the brioche world would split into two nations: the cakey and the bready. Your recipe is definitely a cake-like brioche. Varying the amount of milk and quantity of egg delivers different textures. More milk and less egg produces cakey brioche. The opposite creates tearable, fluffy brioches (especially no milk at all). It's all a matter of what you prefer.
For beautiful soft, tearable brioches try this recipe from Sous Chef: Raspberry and Rosewater Brioche. No need to fret about the raspberry and rosewater glaze, they're still great without.
Btw, I urge you to follow Shai's suggestion and start using weight scales. Baking by volume introduces a lot of errors. Unlike general cooking, baking needs precision.
Finally, it's great to come across someone else who has kneaded brioche by hand. It's hard work, no?
roundhaybake
Thanks for the info on the milk/eggs to cakey/tearable dynamic. I will tuck that away in my toolbox.
I noticed the recipe in the link uses all egg and no milk. I might have to try a half batch, just for the experience.
dobie
...and it occurred to me I might be steering you down the wrong track. That's because we haven't asked you what you meant by 'crumbly'. I assumed it must mean cake-like, but I might be wrong. Sometimes under-hydrated bread can be crumbly. Is it crumbly inside the final brioche after cooling? Is it the crust? Or some earlier stage? How silky is your dough after kneading?
I ran your ingredients through a handy spreadsheet I use when formulating recipes. Compared to my standard brioche recipe -- which is pretty rigidly based on 18th/19th-century practices -- it looks like you're using too little liquid (which can be corrected with more milk, more egg or the addition of water) - complicated by your choice of bread flour (which is high in gluten).
Back in the day, brioche was essentially made with pastry flour, since French wheat was of the soft white variety. Why recipes push people to use bread flour is beyond me; that doesn't make brioche.
Anyway...Take your original recipe, and make these changes:
1. Use all-purpose flour instead of bread flour.
2. Use 3 eggs instead of 2.
3. Use more butter - like 170g (12Tbsp).
That should give you a much more well-behaved dough. But as has been pointed out by others here, there are many ways to make brioche, so my suggestions are just one of many routes to something that will work.
Mr. Waffles
P.S. - Definitely start working by weights, if you can get your hands on a nice digital scale.
Mr. Waffles
I'm glad to hear you bring up the point of Bread or AP flour in such a recipe. I have often wondered (as one who seldom bakes sweet or enriched), why Bread flour would be recommended over AP or Pastry for such, as often is.
I am sure there are other opinions out there (that I would love to hear), but Bread flour for enriched doughs in this case, seems to me to be counter-intuitive.
Please don't forget, 'What do I know?', and that would be, not so much, thus the question.
And yes, weights than measures.
dobie