December 9, 2015 - 4:45pm
Adding fruits and nuts to dough
I make a cinnamon raisin nut bread that folks like around here. I make a sweet dough, knead it and add cinnamon chips, nuts and raisins. The raisins are plumped and allowed to drain and dry for an hour or so. I still find that the raisins tend to over hydrate the dough and cause a sticky mess. I'm contemplating hand folding them in. Would anyone have a suggestion? I use an Ankarsrum mixer and make 4 to 6 1.5 lb loaves at a time.
Share
I make several breads with dried fruits and nuts. I find that, even if the dough is sticky and sloppy after I have mixed in the plumped fruit, the dough comes back together during bulk fermentation. I guess the added water is gradually absorbed by the flour.
Now the breads I make are all sourdough, and the bulk fermentation generally takes 1.5 to 3 hours, depending on ambient temperature. I almost always do a stretch and fold after 45-50 minutes.
If your dough is still sloppy after it has bulk fermented for an hour, maybe you need to mix longer before adding the goodies (to develop the gluten structure better) or try cutting the water in the dough a little.
Happy baking.
David
I have only made bread with fruit and nuts maybe a half dozen times or so thus far, but I always add them during the first stretch & fold (letter fold). I do another few letter folds during the bulk rise as well, which also ensures that they are spread evenly throughout the dough.
alan
This particular dough take at least an hour if not more for bulk fermentation. It's a sweet dough and uses 1.59% instant yeast. It's ok after bulk fermentation but it's a mess coming out of the mixer. That's what prompted me to contemplate folding them in. I was picturing a process similar to pastry dough but without all the folding.
In regards to stretch & folds. Do you stretch the dough, cover it with the nuts and stuff, press the filling into the dough a bit and then fold? Normally I don't do a stretch and fold during bulk fermentation for this bread. How many would you envision for a 1 or 1.5 hour bulk rise? This is an enriched yeast bread. (Recipe is at my blog.)
Thanks for the feedback.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Watch this video of me doing the first of what will be three letter folds. The dough is a different dough than yours, of course, but that isn't the point. I'm just showing how I do the folds and where I add the goodies. At ~ the 51 second mark. For adding the fruit and nuts, this is where I stretch both sides open at once, then layer the stuff across the surface, and then continue as in the video. And then for the second and third set of folds, it is done as in the video.
On the subsequent folds, I try to find the folding pattern that will keep as much of the fruit and nuts toward the internal part of the dough, just being careful to try and not have them disturb the gluten structure. This particular dough is very extensible, as you can see, so I wouldn't expect most doughs to be quite so accommodating. If you do decide to try this, make sue that you moisten the work surface first, else your dough may stick to it.
This particular dough gets 3 letter folds in 60 minutes, but I think that is unusual. I don't work with enriched doughs (yet) so I really can't give any guidance there.
Good luck, alan
We make several fruit loaves; we add the fruit with the salt, after autolyse, the dough does shred initially but comes together perfectly fine during bulk. We do 2 fold during the first hr of about 2hrs.
do you work with? I add salt, fruit, nuts and chips after the autolyse but the fruits, etc are at the end of the knead. As the amount of ingredients increases, so does the difficulty of mixing in the extras. I'm trying to do this in my Ankarsrum mixer. I'm thinking of using the mixer to make the dough and when I remove it for bulk fermentation, divide it and knead/fold the extras in at that point just prior to the bulk fermentation. Possibly doing multiple folds during the rise to get it all in. I would be using two dough buckets.
It's only on the holidays that I deal with these quantities with the extra goodies. Normally my breads don't have all the goodies unless a treat is needed.
We usually do a mix around 8 loaves @ 760g each including fruit/nuts etc, so about 6080g all together. We use a mixer mostly unless we do under 4 loaves, them its by hand; we just chuck it all on top of the dough and literally work it in, burn in the shoulder muscles :) ............ but Im thinking that perhaps your dough is drier and so it doesnt hang onto the fruit very well??
...I reckon I can talk from extensive experience (perhaps more than I ever imagined I'd accumulate).
If you add soaked fruit to a dough in a machine mixer it will rupture. There's no avoiding that. Like Alfanso I've tried adding fruit to bread dough during folding. It's okay for one or two loaves but I found it very hard to get an even distribution especially as, like you, I was working with a relatively large volume of dough. You end up manipulating the dough so much it defeats the purpose of the stretch-and-fold.
Have you tried adding the fruit unsoaked? Wash it, dry it then mix it it in only at the last minute. It works very well with panettone, other fruit loaves I bake, and hot cross buns. The fruit absorbs some moisture from the dough and becomes soft and juicy whilst, at the same time, not drying out the bread. Might be worth experimenting with first before attempting the possibly nightmarish experience of trying to use folds to evenly distribute fruit inside 6-9lbs of dough.
When I made a two loaf version it was easy. Four loaves has gotten a bit messy and I'm rethinking the six. I can split the dough into two and put them into separate rising buckets. This would put about 4.5 lbs into each bucket.
I plump the raisins because they taste and feel so much better in the bread that way. But you are right, the mixer can shred them.
It will be almost two weeks until I make a big batch. Perhaps I need to make a three loaf batch this weekend and try the folding method.
Mike
Id have to agree that the folding method sounds good until you do larger amounts as its virtually impossible to get it evenly mixed, we dont soak our fruit, but again our doughs are kind of wetter and they retard about12 hrs so they pretty soft and juicy once its all done
Is there a site where I can see your bread? I work 44+ hours a week so I don't have as much time to practice as I'd like but I find time to try new breads.
I'm not sure of the exact hydration of my bread. It's 65.1% milk, 6.2% melted butter and 18% honey. The raisins seem to add a bit. I have 19.5% raisins prior to soaking. This is not an every day bread, btw.
Sure :) https://www.facebook.com/Levadura.organic.artisan.sourdough/ This is our page, have a look and let me know what you think... I could share a recipe I suppose, though I might get in trouble , ahahaa
On Facebook you can see my work at https://www.facebook.com/groups/LakeTBakers/
Or you can find more at http://mikeshomebakery.com
Mike
Like the cold retard, it's a 6-8 hour proof for panettone, so the fruit is nice and moist by the time it goes in the oven.
If you try three loaves, you might still find getting an even distribution a frustrating experience. However, you do get another chance (or two) during pre-shape and shaping. Subtle manipulation of Hamelman folds are a great way correcting minor unevenness. I also bake a lot of kugelhopf which are probably more akin to your milk-rich dough. Again, a long proof seems to allow the dried fruit in a KG to plump up but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Yes I think it really depends what youre after, there are sweeter, almost cakey breads, slightly heavier, spongy, milky breads, buttery, fine textured crumb breads... Some people like their bread drier or denser, some people go for massive holes, thinking that thats how its meant to be.... Point being, fiddle with the recipe til you like it :)
I find our Fruitful loaf (which is actually vegan, though many people dont seem to know) is most popular for us. We use some almond oil, and apricots, prunes, toasted walnuts, currants and sultanas, and some golden linseed. It really is "fruit-full", a full scale breakfast, with bakers flour @ about 11-12% protein, and some brown sugar. The dough is quite slack and sticky to start, but gains strength with a couple of folds.
Then we have an entirely different loaf with 40% whole rye flour, malt, sugar, butter, a bit of yoghurt, ginger and sweet spices and figs... Its denser, a bit heavier, more cakey and earthy tasting because of the rye and spices.
Just depends what you like :)
Just a tracker, folks.
Pardon my ignorance, I don't know all the terms.
pmiker,
I should have kept my mouth shut (but I seldom do).
I've never heard the term before either. But I was just trying to let everyone know that altho I had nothing of significance to add; I was paying attention.
And by making even the slightest post '(.)' for example, this thread now shows up on my own 'track' record, which makes it much easier for me to not forget it.
That is all that is meant by that.
Of course, now your have blown my cover ;-).
And by the way, I do have some serious questions to ask regarding fruit and bread that I will ask shortly. Just getting my ducks in a row for now.
Sorry for any confusion,
dobie
I've noticed that the dot/period is the smallest post. You can't delete a post here but you can make a tiny one.
I only asked because new terminology keeps popping up. I'm not much of a cell phone user and I don't use twitter and my facebook use is light.
Due to my work schedule I spend more time thinking about my bread than making it. I work out the formulas on paper till I think they're correct. If necessary, I tweak the formula when I actually make it. This particular formula evolved over time. I have made raisin breads from the books by Hamelman and Reinhart. I've made sourdough raisin breads and I've taken notes. In addition I typically make a light whole wheat bread for sandwiches which I've tweaked this way and that. One version is an enriched version with enough honey to make it taste lightly sweet. This is the basis for the raisin bread. That way it is not just a white bread with raisins and a cinnamon swirl. It became real popular with my co-workers for the holiday. So I'm trying to ramp up my production. That's easier with traditional bread. At least it is with my facilities.
I hope to make a six loaf version next weekend. Right now my freezer section of the refrigerator is full and my work schedule won't give me much time. The cinnamon and honey retard the rise so this bread takes several hours to make. If not for that I would make it in the evening.
In the meantime I am reading up on all the raisin bread formulas in my books and watching the various youtube videos on raisin bread. (Gotta get my ducks lined up as well!)
Ahh... work schedules... a necessary evil, n'est ce pas?
I too am a cog in the machine. My work weeks are currently alternating between 48 and 60 hours (all hail overtime!) so I definitely understand the time constraints on your baking. But I was wondering... What is the average length of time it takes you to mix one of your 2-loaf batches? I know it would be less efficient, but would it be time prohibitive to mix up three 2-loaf batches, add in your goodies then combine them or just shape right from each batch?
With a powerhouse like an Ankarsrum, I would think you could bang out a batch of dough in about 10-15 minutes or so (unless you're doing a long autolyse). If you had all the batches pre weighed/measured and ready to dump into the mixer that would make it less than an hour. I'm imagining you're already putting in close to an hour trying to mix goodies into 6 loaves' worth of dough at once, so maybe working with smaller batches would be less hectic. You wouldn't even really need to clean the mixer between batches, so it would be kind of an assembly line setup.
My wife and I like to make up big trays of fancy cookies to give away at Christmas time and using this assembly line approach we can get 10-12 pounds of cookie dough ready to roll out or go in the fridge in pretty short order. We have a second bowl for the mixer, so if consecutive batches would not taste good together then one of us mixes while the other washes the last bowl. And it doesn't stress my 15-year-old Kitchenaid as much as trying to mix double or triple batches all at once.
Just a thought...
--Mike
are quicker. But it's not the time in the machine that gets me. It's the dough rising time. My sugarless yeast breads will rise in an hour or less per rise. This highly sweetened cinnamon bread takes about double that. I also do a 30 minute autolyse after mixing since 50% of the flour is fresh milled whole grain.
I am thinking of smaller batches. That may be a way to go.
This to everyone on this thread
I empathize with work and other commitments interferring with baking schedules, so I will be as direct as possible.
I've been following a few threads regarding 'fruit and nuts in bread or cake' and I think this is the best place to ask these questions.
My goal is a yeasted, enriched dough loaf, but rather than using 'candied' fruits, I'm thinking of using some (re-hydrated) dried fruits (apricots, cranberries and raisins) as well as some fresh fruits (cherries, peaches, oranges, pinapple and apples).
I'm pretty comfortable with how to fold the fruit into the dough. I'm fairly comfortable with the dough part of it (but would love to check out any recommended recipes you might have).
Two big questions. First, should I dehydrate the fresh fruit a bit before use (and if so, to what extent)?
Second, when it comes to nuts, I am thinking walnuts or pecans (soft nuts) and I'm wondering how to treat them so that they are truly soft and tender in the final bread? Do I simmer them in a simple syrup, just water, or neither?
Any other input would be much appreciated. This is not something I've done before (other than an occassional cinnamon/raisin bread), but I would love to give it a try to this degree.
Thanks in advance,
dobie
That, and you don't wind up taking the OP's thread off in another direction than they intended. In Internet terms, jumping into an existing thread with a new (even if related) topic is called thread-jacking.
Paul
Thank you Paul,
I will take that into consideration.
If what 'you say' is the will of this forum, I will respect that.
When I first started lurking this forum a few years ago, I looked for an 'etiquette' page, but never found one. I still haven't.
Please realize that this is only the third forum I have ever been a member of, so I am not particularly 'forum' savey.
Also, on the two other forums I have ever been involved with, I don't recall anyone ever expressing a concern for this type of interaction (nor did their etiquitte pages).
On those forums, usually, the conversation flies pretty wild, by question and whimsy. If the OP needs to refocus, they fell free to do so when needed.
Personally, on any of the threads I have started on TFL (and other forums), I've felt honored by how diverse (tho, perhaps convoluted) the conversation can become. But to each their own.
I thought it would be more impolite to create new threads when really not necessary. But if I am wrong, I apologize.
I don't mean to distract from the OP's original post, I just want to further the conversation. But if that is not polite, I will do so no further.
Thanks for the heads up.
dobie
ps - I would like to add tho, that the title of the thread is 'Adding fruits and nuts to dough', so I'm not sure how I was off topic or being 'hijacking' of the thread. Also, that pmiker (the OP) didn't seem offended to engage.
Perhaps, there are nuances that I don't yet understand. If so, I sure wish someone would write them down.
...if the one who pays the rent doesn't mind, then having the subject of a thread wander is OK. So far, I've seen no evidence that our host does.
I've been using bulletin boards, conferencing systems and Web fora for over thirty years. Some have been heavily moderated to keep them on topic and some have had a totally open policy. They each have their place but the most interesting, socially satisfying and liveliest are always the latter. Mind you, they're the ones where the travelling fish-pun thread always turns up, too, so you can't have everything.
Thank you Jon
It's good to know I'm not the only one who has had those experiences as well as an appreciation for the more open form.
I agree, that if Floyd doesn't mind, that is tacit consent. On the other hand, I think the one who posts a thread also has a say (within that thread), and I wouldn't want to do anything to offend anyone.
I have offended enough without even intending to. The written word can be tricky to accurately convey thoughts. I try to be careful.
Please don't get me wrong, I like pmccool. I find his posts and comments very helpful. But I would like to hear from others as well, as to their opinions on the matter, to build a consesus (as there is no 'etiquitte page' on this forum).
That being said, at this point I am hesitant to post anything as I clearly don't understand how my post was innapropriate, and therefore, unrestrained, I would commit the same faux pas (if it is one) again.
But I guess the silence from those participating in the discussion, speaks volumes.
I've just been reading and trying to take notice in other threads, of how I might be misunderstanding something.
But it'll all work out, one way or the other.
I truly appreciate your input.
dobie
ps - now this thread has officially been jacked. My apologies pmiker
dobie, please read my PM to you.
Paul
hi, can I check if its possible to add nuts to dough after bulk fermentation?
liming
liming
Sorry to say, apparently not.
dobie
ps - altho that is not my opinion