The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Pizza Dough Ball Becomes TOO Slack

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Pizza Dough Ball Becomes TOO Slack

Here is the recipe I use

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-KDRmOYSb0

But after being in the fridge for 8+ hours the dough ball become almost impossible to get of the plate. I tried lots of flour, I tried oil.... no luck. The end result is pretty good though. Tried this twice now and just want to get a way of obtaining a more manageable dough ball after fermentation. 

WoodenSpoon's picture
WoodenSpoon

which, in extreme cases can certainly cause flattened sticky rounds. does it still have some strength or can you just pull it apart with yer hands?

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

It still is workable but you it is really stretchy. I tried needing the dough a fair bit, then shaped the balls very very well. They seemed just perfect when they went into the fridge. I keep reading about keeping dough for 3-5 days in the fridge like that. The picture is after about 19 hours in the fridge. 

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Maybe next time I will try just 4  hours n the fridge and then immediately shape the dough. Not as much flavour to the dough though. Longer fermentation enhances the flavour. I wonder if this has to do with too much yeast or the fact that Iive at about 1100 metres.

gerhard's picture
gerhard

How much yeast is in the dough?  What was the dough temperature when it went in the fridge?  What is the temperature of your fridge?  

Gerhard

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

If you watch the link to the vid I sent, it is all the same except I omitted the  oil.

I used 3/4 teaspoon of  normal dry yeast.

I really do not know the temperatures but flour was cool and I used cold water. Next time I will try a shorter ferment time; maybe our elevation affects this. I could try fermenting in the freezer; is that possible?

dobie's picture
dobie

Hi Carb Addict

Any chance you can post the recipe? I am currently 'YouTube' challanged and can't access it.

Other than using the freezer to help 'quick chill', I'm pretty sure a frozen dough will not be fermenting much.

Thanks

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Next time I will freeze some and then ferment some in the fridge for just 4 hours and see what happens. I fI free some and then want to use it, I suppose I can just take it out and let it rest at room temp for a few hours.

dobie's picture
dobie

Carb Addict

While I'm not saying you can't freeze the dough and then thaw and use, I don't think that freezing will solve your problem of 'slack' dough.

Please realize I am flying blind here (not your fault, mine). Apparently you have posted a pic (or more), but I can't see them. If I only knew what your recipe was, I might be able to help. I make a lot of pizza without such problems.

prettedda has posted a recipe that is minus the water component. I don't know if that's the recipe you followed or not, but without the water component, it means little.

So if you can, please post the recipe as best you can recall. I know you must be frustrated, but it really won't be difficult, eventually.

dobie

prettedda's picture
prettedda

153 g 00 flour

153 g all purpose

8 g salt

2 g yeast

4 g olive oil

Looks over proofed. Did you put it immediately in the fridge after mixing and dividing? If not try that and see if it works. 

dobie's picture
dobie

Thanks prettedda

Do you know what the water content is?

dobie

prettedda's picture
prettedda

Sorry I was working on the phone and jumping BTW 2 web windows.

dobie's picture
dobie

prettedda

Thanks so much. 200 g water noted. With 306 g flour, that is just about 65% hydration. I would consider this about ideal for pizza dough.

Thank you for the search.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Yep, went right into the fridge. I did not use any oil.

dobie's picture
dobie

Hi Carb Addict

I went to a friends computer so I could see the YouTube link you posted for the recipe you used.

I must have missed it, but I didn't see any recipe other than a glossing over of ingredients. Did I miss a sub-link or something? If so, sorry, but I couldn't find it.

What is the recipe you used? I might be able to help you if I knew.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

about 300 grams flour

1 cup cold H2O

1 tsp salt

3/4 tsp yeast

dobie's picture
dobie

Ahh, now we're getting somewhere.

If 'about' 300 g flour is the 306 g prettedda quoted and the 200 g water prettedda quoted is acurate, then your 1 cup of water (at 28.4 g per oz) would equal 227 g water. It may not seem like much, but it is the difference between a 75% and a 65% hydration dough, which in terms of dough, is very significant, and could certainly lead to a 'slack' dough (considering the flour type).

I would continue to keep the oil out of it for the time being and if you can't weigh things out by the gram, then use 7 oz water instead of eight.

Also, I don't know jack about Italian grade '00' flour, but you should consider the difference between it and AP flour as something to look at if you have future problems. I just don't know about it's characteristics, so you be the judge. You could always just go to all AP for the moment and then adjust back to '00' accordingly.

The more you can weigh out your ingredients, the more accurate you will be in your percentages (whether in ounces or grams), thus the more accurate and predicatable your dough will be.

Your yeast and salt seem reasonable and are not a cause for concern regarding slack dough (in my opinion).

Keep at it.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Wish you were able to see my image of the fermented dough to see how slack it is. The funny thing is,when I knew this adding just a bit f flour the dough is not slack at all and is a pleasure to hand knead. It balls up great and is wonderful BUT, after fermentation, the dough balls become cow pies. I expect the balls to flatten but still be manageable. Mine are really difficult to get out of the fermentation pan without deflating them. The first time I tried this I covered them with plastic wrap and it stuck  like hell.

The first time I just used AP flour and it was not quite as bad as when I used )) flour, but still not want I wanted or expected. I'll try using less water ( I do weigh the ingredients except the water). I think I will also do this in the AM and check the progress through the day. If the balls still look good I will hold off and make for supper.

dobie's picture
dobie

Dude

Do you know how hard it is to do this internet in braille?

Just kidding, I'm only experiencing technical difficulties, thankfully. I wish I could see your pics too.

Are you kneading with a stand mixer of some sort or does all of your kneading/mixing get done by hand? Also, are you familiar with the 'stretch and fold' methods? Just curious.

If you want to know all of my 'secret' (very basic) recipe/techniques that I use to get to where I think it is you want to go to, all you have to do is ask.

I would be interested in finding out if that info would be transferable, repeatable by someone else. Particularly that you are baking at 1100 m and I, at sea level. It seems to me that you are very, very close and really don't need my help. Just weigh your water and figure your hydration to be more about 65% is all.

Regardless, thank you for the good thread.

dobie

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

You've mentioned your altitude a couple times above.  While altitude absolutely affects what happens inside the oven, it's not likely that it is the culprit inside your fridge.  I live at 5900 ft (1798 m) and have no trouble with long-term fermentation in my fridge.  

I think the other respondents to your query are closer to the mark in trying to find the problem in your ingredient list.

dobie's picture
dobie

MonkeyDaddy

If you don't mind me asking, where are you? 5900 feet is pretty well up there.

Thanks

dobie

gerhard's picture
gerhard

it's shape originally and deteriorated over 8 hours while held at refrigerator temperatures I would cut the yeast in half or less.  I often make pizza dough and have baked it on the third day with good results.  I have never had good results freezing dough, commercially frozen dough goes through a blast freezer so it is almost instant while when you put it in your freezer the outside starts to freeze in 20 minutes while the centre of a dough ball may take several hours to freeze.

Gerhard

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Gee, I was wondering if I should cut back on the yeast. I'll try that in addition to shorter fermentation. Then gradually lengthen the fermentation again t see if the dough ball doesn't turn to crap. Initially the dough ball was terrific; really nice texture and very stable yet soft. Looked great.

 

I used about 300 g of flour, 1 cup water, 3/4 tsp yeast and a teaspoon of salt. No oil.

gerhard's picture
gerhard

solution to a problem it is best to only change one parameter at a time.  

When I make pizza dough I let it rest for 15 to 20 minutes after mixing and then divide it, round it and and store each ball in a oiled cereal bowl covered by dish straight into the fridge.  I always make the dough at least a day before I intend to make pizza, sometimes life happens and I need to change plans and the dough seems just as good a day or two later.

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Gerhard

Yes, I totally agree. And after 4 or 5 days it magically takes on a bit of a sour note, and is perfectly servicable.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

I saw another vid where the guy was making Neapolitan style dough (similar to what I made) and he kneaded it about 15 minutes. I did the same even though in the recipe I used they did not do that. Do you think I kneaded it too long? Should I just mix till incorporated, rest it, and then simply make the balls?

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

When I checked the video it was a clip from the online cooking link at the New York Times.  I Googled the article and found the link.  It also links over to the video too.  The ingredient list and instructions are there.

http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-dough

dobie's picture
dobie

 MonkeyDaddy, Thank you so much, I was so limited and so lost. dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

Carb Addict

It's not your fault. I just saw the recipe you were no doubt following and it is the author/editor's error. How in the hell they can refer to 200 g of water as 'about a cup' of water, is totally irresponsible.

So much for the 'I read it in the New York Times, it must be true' theory. Chuckle, chuckle.

You are not the first nor the last to be so decieved by well intentioned idiots.

Have faith.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Just to respond to your question, I am mixing by hand (just to gather all ingredients). REST 15 MINUTES, then knead for about 15 minutes. Felt like great dough and didn't need to incorporate a whole lot of flour in the process. Then formed 3 balls and pooped into the fridge. I uses  ceramic pan and covered it with plastic wrap high enough sides so the dough never touched the wrap.

Ya I am familiar with he fold and stretch method, not that I have ever used it.

Sure I'd love to have your recipe. I do like this dough and the result is very nice but I just can't handle it the way I want after fermentation. Next time I will use less H2O as suggested and ferment for a shorter to time just to see how the balls behave. Thanks.

dobie's picture
dobie

Carb Addict

This is a recipe I developed about 4-5 years ago so it is in ounces and not grams (I hadn't made the switch yet). I've made it well over 100 times and can do it in my sleep (so I never bothered to convert it). Other than that you are using half '00' flour, since you have eliminated the oil, the ingredients and hydration are nearly identical.

I have done this successfully with both AP and Bread flour and usually add about 15% of the flour total as white whole wheat for better flavor. It ends up being about 66% hydration.

Take 32 oz water and 32 oz of flour (7 oz of that being WWW if desired) with 1/4 ts dried or instant yeast and incorporate in an oversized container. Let this poolish sit out overnight and by morning it should be doubled or more.

I would then use a KitchenAid stand mixer to incorporate 1/2 ts additional yeast (perhaps less in the summer), 1 oz salt (a little more or less to your taste) and another 16 oz of Bread or AP flour. Knead it at speed 2 for about 4-5 minutes. At this point it acts like a slug. You can knead it on the bench if you prefer (try to avoid adding flour to stiffen, use a scrapper instead). The dough will be about 80 oz (or 5 lbs).

I put that dough in a lightly oiled oversize container and let it rest/proof for 45 minutes or so. Then I stretch and fold (no bench flour) and return to the container for another 30 minutes or so and repeat. I do that (often not very accurately time-wise) until the gluten seems developed and the dough is difficult to stretch and fold any further.

I then divide it up into 6 pieces about 12 oz each with one or two being a little heavy (for thicker pies). I tension them up into balls and put them into plastic containers (no oil or flour) and into the fridge. Usually I'll keep 2 or 3 out to bake with right away, but the flavor will be better the next day and beyond.

They will rise a bit more until the cold of the fridge slows them down sufficiently. If they start to pop their lids, just take them out and give them a bit of a balling. That will decompress them back to size and should only need to be done once, if at all.

To make a 10 inch pie, take the container of dough out of the fridge and peel the dough out on a lightly floured bench (top down). The dough will again be slug like.  Don't flour the wettish bottom that is now on top. Tension it into a ball, dust with flour, squish it down a little, cover with a floured towel (preferably smooth, not terrycloth) and let it rest 20-30 minutes. Then flatten it out a little more with your hand, cover and rest again, dusting along the way. Usually by the third time, it is ready for the peel (or pan) and ready to be topped and baked.

I would suggest not using a rolling pin as it makes for a tough pie in my experience. If baking in pans (which I mostly do) you have the option of using an oiled pan or a dry semolina (or corn meal in a pinch) pan (as on a peel). Sometimes I generously oil the pan and flip the dough over in it so that both sides are oiled. Oiled outer edge crust is more tender, less 'crispy' and some prefer it that way (I usually don't). Obviously, the thinner the center part of the pie, the easier it will be to have it 'crisp'.

High heat, dry as possible toppings (not piled on too high) are all good things I think.

This is a very forgiving process and dough. Instead of 16 oz of flour for the final dough, you can use 14 or 18 for a wetter or stiffer dough, as you see fit.

If 80 oz is too much, I'm sure the recipe would halve quite well. After 4-6 days you might notice a bit of sour to the smell of the dough and the taste of the product. Don't worry, this is a good thing, essentially a bit of sourdough activity.

It will also make a decent baguette, batard or rolls if you desire.

If you do try this, please let me know how it works for you.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Thanks for the recipe. I might try it sometime and will let you know how it goes.

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

You asked where we live; Calgary at abut 4000 ft. I think it was Monkey that said they vedette 5900 ft, not me.

dobie's picture
dobie

Yes Carb Addict, I was asking of MonkeyDaddy. I guess he might be in Colorado, but I don't know.

Alberta is also a nice and high place. I've passed thru Calgary a few times and enjoyed it and the whole region very much. Beautiful country. In fact I've enjoyed all my visits to Canada. Some of the friendliest people to be found on this earth.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

You comment to monkey came to me! You may have just replied to me by accident. This site while very informative, sucks big time in term of web development. No offence to who built this but it could use an overhaul. Very clunky to use.

dobie's picture
dobie

Sorry for any confusion. I just double checked and my question to MonkeyDaddy was a reply to his post. Why it came directly to you, I have no idea.

I agree with you, posts on this forum don't always end up where they should. I've seen it happen before.

No harm, no foul.

Did you end up making pie with the dough?

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

LOL, no way, I just go the recipe today! It may be a while before I have time to do this.

dobie's picture
dobie

Yeah, that made me laugh too.

But no, I meant the dough that you were working on.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

Oh, no. But maybe this weekend. I;v been pretty busy; I'm up to my ass in code. Not a complaint mind you, considering the economy and that fact that most of my clients are oil patch, I'm expecting a very slow  year ahead :(

dobie's picture
dobie

Understood (except for 'oil patch').

But yeah, you gotta get it while you can.

dobie

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Since we are sharing recipes here is mine, it is based on the one that I made in the video  I made a few years ago and attached to this post.  Like most of my recipes they seem to develop over time so it is slightly different today.  The photo of the guy spinning the pizza skin on my recipe card was taken a few years ago in Savannah Georgia, our table was almost directly under the kitchen window.  The pizza was almost as good as the show they put on.

 

 

 

Pizza










Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Gerhard

Ooohhh, sourdough pizza. I will definetly try that soon. Such a nice and simple recipe as well.

Good vid and even better looking pie.

I have an old Kamado (about 15 years) that is very similar to your 'egg'. How old is yours and how is it holding up? They are great tools, aren't they? Can you fire yours with LP or the like as well as coals?

Thanks

dobie

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Thanks for the comment.  I think I bought the egg in 2011 after years of having an offset smoker, I don't think I have had a propane grill during this century.  The egg uses lump charcoal and I have to stock up for the winter before it becomes too hard to find.  I bought it because I love low and slow cooking and with the offset smoker once temperatures drop to near freezing it is virtually impossible to cook while the egg is unaffected by ambient temperature.

My wife's daughter is a victim of the oil patch downturn as well.  My brother and I moved her back to Ontario from Fort St. John earlier in October, 8400 km in 7 days in a Chevy Express Van towing a U-Haul for the return trip.

Gerhard

dobie's picture
dobie

Yeah, you gotta get that lump in now while it's still available. Of course, a lot of places put it on 'special' to liquidate their stock at this time of year as well, so good buys can be had. In fact, this when I tend to stock up for the year.

These are truly year round cookers. Impervious to winter temps and allow you to avoid heating up the indoor kitchen in the summer to bake bread or pizza or pull some pork. Plus, they can get hotter than any standard kitchen oven when needed.

I was just wondering if LP was an option. I have that option on mine and on rare occassion, find it usefull. I could just go to the website to find out (not that it would be a deal breaker).

My Kamado is slowly deteriorating (anything not stainless steel) and I'm thinking I'm either gonna get an egg or build a WFO. Not sure.

Sorry to hear about the oil patch retraction. I don't know what else to say.

dobie

 

gerhard's picture
gerhard

There is no gas option with the green eggs as far as I know.  I have been happy with it and it comes with a lifetime guarantee on a ceramic parts, never had the chance to test that.

For her personally it was a bump in the road, she is single and has limited assets so the move wasn't difficult.  For people that are raising families, have mortgages and family ties to the area it is really rough.  Northern Canada is an expensive place to be unemployed but when it's booming employment is very lucrative.

Gerhard

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

The oil patch = petroleum industry. It is hug here in Alberta and the headquarters of most companies is in Calgary. Most of my clients are either energy companies or companies that support them. It's a food chain and we have a new government that is out to utterly destroy the industry. But of course that is not a bread topic except to say, I make my head from this and it goes down it's going to hurt my company too.

dobie's picture
dobie

Thanks for the explaination CA.

I've really got to get out more. Most of what you said is news to me. I hope you can step laterally and still do well enough.

dobie

Carb Addict's picture
Carb Addict

I do have some non oil path clients but not many. Make make most of my bread (no pun intended) from oil related companies.

dobie's picture
dobie

I hear you CA. You know what to do. You gotta break out that old song and dance.

I wish you the best.

dobie

MonkeyDaddy's picture
MonkeyDaddy

Dobie, sorry I missed your post.

I'm in Parker, CO.  Little town just south of Denver, "the Mile High City."

dobie's picture
dobie

Thanks MonkeyDaddy

I was just curious. You never know on this forum where someone might be.

dobie