The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Why do we triple the weight of sourdough starters when we feed them?

Lokbot's picture
Lokbot

Why do we triple the weight of sourdough starters when we feed them?

I'm wondering why we triple the weight when we feed our sourdough twice a day as opposed to doubling(or some other factor)

I started making a sourdough starter and I'm on day five.  I miss read the instructions and was adding 2 oz water and 2 oz flour to 4 oz of starter with each feeding.  I was double checking the recipe today and noticed that I was supposed to be adding 4 oz flour and 4 oz water to 4 oz of starter with each feeding.  I was wondering if there was any specific reason we triple the weight with each feeding instead of doubling it.  

Also if we are concerned with keeping those ratios of feeding equal amounts why don't we go with 2 oz of starter 2 oz of flour 2 oz of water for each feeding cycle.  We would waste half of the amount of flour in that feeding cycle.

 

-Loki

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Loki, there are many different ways to start and maintain starters. First, the last two numbers give us the hydration.  So if you use 1 oz starter, 1 oz flour, and 1 oz water, you end up with a 100% hydration.  If you were maintaining a stiffer starter, you might go 1 oz starter, 1 oz water, 1.3 oz starter.  Second, for the most part, the ratio is the only thing that matters, not the actual amounts.  I maintain my starter at 5 grams  ( roughly .17 ounce)  starter, 5 grams water and 5 grams flour, when I am using a 100% starter.  Others use different ratios to maintain their starters.  Once your starter is active, you can certainly use less added flour and water to minimize the waste.  It is not uncommon to keep a very small amount on hand, and then do successive builds to get the starter for a particular loaf.  For example,  I took the starter out of the fridge this morning, discarded all but 10 grams,  added 10 grams of water, 10 grams of flour, mixed,  took out 10 grams of the mix and put it in the fridge, and left the other 20 grams out to use tonight in a recipe that called for 15 grams of starter.  

Maverick's picture
Maverick

If you feed only 2 oz of flour and 2 oz of water to the 4 oz of starter once it is active, then it will eat up all the flour and start to starve. In the beginning, things are less active and you can get away with feeding lesser amounts. Since you are building a new starter, you don't want to dump out too much or you might be getting rid of too many critters to get things going. Eventually you can reduce the amount considerable.

There comes a point where you need to watch what the starter does to determine when to feed and how much. I am in Florida and my room temperature is in the mid 70's. So that makes things more active. I also have a vigorous starter so I have to feed it 1 part starter to 10 parts flour and 10 parts water if I want it to peek at 12 hours (I feed at the peek). If I used 4 oz (or even 2 oz) of starter then I would have crazy amounts every day. I use 6 grams (~0.2 oz) of starter with 60 grams of flour and 60 grams of water. I could do 5:50:50, but I tend to use at least 100g of starter and might lose a gram or two to the mixing spoon, etc.

When I lived in California, my ratios were lower and my room temperature fluctuated more (it was cooler at night) so that sometimes at night I would do 1:3:3 and in the day it was 1:4:4 (or 1:5:5).

As a side note, my biggest tip is to stir a new starter several times a day. It really helps. Even an older starter can be stirred to allow it to go a little longer without being fed. In fact, when I put mine in the refrigerator I stir it after a few days and it really helps keep it vigorous.

Like mentioned above, there are many ways to maintain a starter. When first making a starter, it is best to follow the directions in the beginning. My favorite is the pineapple juice method you can find on here by Debra Wink. It is fool proof and I have used it many times without fail. Of course, I did need to make adjustments once it came to maintaining it.

dobie's picture
dobie

maveric

Are you talking about maintaning your starter at room temp, for daily use or building new (or both)?

Just curious.

dobie

Maverick's picture
Maverick

I mean that if I keep my starter at room temperature then I feed it every 12 hours. Every 12 hours I take 6g of the starter and add 60g of flour and 60g of water. This equates to a little over 4 generations in 12 hours which is really fast (for perspective the 4oz:2oz:2oz is enough for 1 generation of critters to be produced). I either use the rest or discard (though I rarely discard ever since I started making "English Muffins" out of what would normally be discarded). If I fed it less then it would "tell" me that it needed food before the 12 hours was up. Of course if I gave it a stir at that point then I could get more time out of it, but that requires too much baby sitting.

If I keep mine in a warm refrigerator (I have a mini fridge that I keep just below 50F) then it peaks after 3 days. I give it a stir and it can go longer. I can go a week like this as long as I stir it and it will react as if it were on the counter (in my normal fridge I wouldn't need to stir it but I only do that when I go out of town).

After 3 days, I could just take out 6g and feed it as above and it will be ready 12 hours later while leaving the "mother" in the fridge. I could take out 50g and feed it 25g of flour and 25g of water and it will be ready in ~3 hours. But I prefer the flavoring after it sits for 12 hours on the counter or using it directly from the fridge after 3 days or more (saving the 6g and rebuilding the "mother" of course).

Really it depends on how much I am using it. There are many ways to play around with it once the starter has aged. I never put a new starter in the refrigerator for at least the first 2 weeks. I would not recommend diluting the starter as much as I do unless your starter "tells" you that you have to.

BTW, Dabrownman's method of maintaining a starter is the ultimate in using what I would call a "mother" and recommend reading how he does it:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40918/no-muss-no-fuss-starter

dobie's picture
dobie

Loki

I think that once your starter is happy and healthy, whether you are baking everyday, every week or other week, you will find a feeding and using schedule that will result in little (if any) waste.

Discard is really only necessary at the start of building your sourdough starter, just to keep the mass under control. But once it's up and running, it is only if you don't bake with it for awhile (yet still keep it fed once a week or so), that you might further experience discard.

dobie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

been a godsend.  Many starters are overfed when trying to establish them.  I would not change to 4 oz each flour and water to 4 oz starter.  Stick to the 2:1:1 ratio (s:w:f) you are on until it starts smelling yeasty and shows activity.  A temperature of at least 75°F will also heip and you can lower it later when established. 

Thanshin's picture
Thanshin

I feed mine every 12h. I just remove all but the smallest amount of starter (~1tbsp) and feed it 40g water:50g flour.

Essentially, it has a cycle of feed->growth->liquify and I want him to do that cycle in a way that ends growth as late as possible. The idea is to never let it be hungry. Thus, a larger proportion of food and a low hydration so it feeds slower.

When I plan to make bread, I feed him a larger amount the previous feeding, so I can start making the bread with at least 150-200g of very thick and strong starter at the peak of growth.

I should take a picture of my starter right before feeding. It looks like a thick gluten webbing.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

On the sourdough journey and you're creating the Starter you'll find many instructions on how to do so. Everyone will claim a "magic formula" with precise amounts and times to flour and proportions. It will be confusing at first and no doubt information overload. Eventually you'll be able to find your own way which works and maintenance schedule that suits you. I'm not going to bog you down with anymore numbers etc... however, here are a few pointers which I hope you'll find useful.

 

1. To make a starter all you need is flour + water + time.

2. Your starter may show more activity the first few days then go quiet. Do not despair. Very normal. Adopt the feeding schedule of only refreshing when you see signs of activity and when it becomes stronger and predictable it is ready.

3. 100% hydration is equal amounts of flour + water by weight!

4. Good feeds makes for a healthy starter. 1:1:1 is equal amounts of Starter + Water + Flour by weight. This is a good feed. I'm at the stage of not measuring exactly the ratio i'm feeding my starter but I always weigh the flour + water i'm adding and it's always 1:1:1 or more. So what i'll do is eyeball how much is left and just feed it what is invariably a good feed.

5. Once your starter is viable then there is no need to keep up your current schedule. If you're a daily baker then keep it out  on your worktop and simple take from it everyday and feed it everyday. If you're an accasional baker then keep it in the fridge and take a little from it each time. Then build up a preferment to use in your bread. When your starter in the fridge runs low just take it out and feed it, allow it to bubble up by half then return it to the fridge. No discard.

6. You're only discarding now because it needs regular feeds but you're not using it yet. If you don't discard you'll have a swimming pool of the stuff soon if each time you feed it 1:1:1 or more. But soon you won't be slave to your starter.

Hope this helps.  

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

Depending how occasionally you bake, you may not have to build a preferment, at least not most of the time. Another way that can work is to use part of your refrigerated starter to make your dough, then rebuild the left-over starter back to its original weight, let it feed / rise on the counter for a couple of hours or so depending on room temp., then put it back in the fridge. 

As an example, if you keep 150 gm of starter and use 100 gm, then rebuild it back to 150 gm by feeding it 1:1:1 with 50 gm flour plus 50 gm water. 

There's no one size fits all method. Find one that works for how you bake. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Whether you take some off and build a preferment or use some straight in your dough (providing you have a enough) and then top the mother starter back up is the difference between a 6 and two 3's. Of course preferments are starters as there is no difference to feeding a starter or taking some off and feeding that. There is no-one way that fits all. Everyone has their own method which suits their baking. Not even I have one single way and switch between whatever works at the time. If I find I have enough then i'll take straight from the mother starter and put that in the dough. If not then i'll do the way I described. I favour the way I described as keeping less and building preferments is easy to manage, the starter that goes into your bread is always recently fed, one can build to different requirements. But of course at the end of the day it's whatever works for your own needs.

When I first started it was very confusing and got information overload. In the end I followed my mentors advice and overtime, when I got used to sourdough, I found my own way and now just go by what is best for my schedule at the moment.

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

...An excellent backup for when you find you suddenly have less starter than you need. Or a dead starter.

Having read many, many posts on TFL about this subject, I reckon most experienced home bakers who don't bake every day shift away from bulk discards. Left alone for long periods a starter is incredibly robust. A weekly feed is enough. These days I just decant what I need to build a levain and give it three feeds. I'm also cutting the build time progressively from 12 to 8 to 4 hours and it works very well.

Can I suggest you use the search function on TFL and take the time to read some of the posts on this subject. It'll give lots more information.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

spread some of the starter out in a thin thin layer on a sheet of parchment.  "bake" it - really just use the oven light to warm the starter until it dries completely.  Crackle the now dehydrated starter  into tiny chips and stash them away somewhere (labelled!).  That will give you two distinct backups, and this one in the event of you needing to transport it, a disaster or nuclear holocaust. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

feeding it twice a day but like most people was too lazy and didnlt bake enou=ough to hot have a hige amount of discarded waste.  So I started feeding it once a day and then i moved it to the fridge and fed it once a week.  Still too much waste though.  Now i keep a small,164 g when refresh, whole rye stiff starter in the fridge at 66% hydration for up to 20 weeks with no maintenance and using 5-10 g each week to build a levain for a loaf of bread from the mother.   Not only is it a No Muss No Fuss Starter but it is also a case where less is more and the bread it makes is way better tasting than any bread i ever make from  a counter fed starter..  It is a win, win, win.  No maintenance, no waste and much better bread

I use the 15 rule for building it back to the lagest  size when it gets down to 10 g after and to build levains from it every week. 1 part starter, 14 parts flour over 3 builds of 4 hours each.  The 1st build is 10 g of starter but 1  part is the amount of flour left in the 10 g of starter - 6 g  and the first build is twice that 12 g the 2nd build is twice the first 24 g and the 3rd build is twice the 2nd or 48 g.....so.  6+ 12 +24+48 = 90 g of flour total divide that by 15 and you get the flour in the starter amount = 6 grams

I keep my starter at 66% hydration so the 90 g of flour has 60 g of water in it.(90 timed .6666)  For the first two builds, the water equals the flour 12 and 24 g  plus the 4 g of water in the original 10 of seed starter= 40 g so the 3rd feeding has 60-40 or 20 g of water to equal the 60 total required.  This gives you 150 g of 66% hydration starter.  if you divide that by 15 you get 10 ......the original amount of seed required.  Love the rule of 15's   Here is how you do it with levain build examples.  Just make sure your starter is stable, mature and converted to rye before you shrink it down and change the hydration for 66% for long term storage the no mus no fess way

No Muss No Fuss Starter

Happy SD baking 

drogon's picture
drogon

... regularly feed the starter that is. e.g. see the no muss, no fuss above...

My starters live in the fridge and get topped up when I use them. If I need 300g of starter for a mix, then I take 300g from the fridge, add it into the mix, top-up the starter jar and put it back in the fridge. And it can stay there for a few weeks without my worrying about it (or it used to - I bake 5-6 days a week now!)

These days, I need more starter than I keep in jars in the fridge, so I take it from the fridge as before then bulk it up with equal weights flour & water - usually double the flour to starter (ie. 300g starter plus 600g flour plus 600g water) then I leave that 4-6 hours before using it in the dough.

But there are dozens of other ways - keep reading & baking and find something that works for you.

-Gordon

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

their house and baking mega loaves of bread a week so folks have different needs and have ways to skin the cat.  Thank goodness there are countless ways to keep starters for every situation.

I think if I were baking bread every day and wanted a less sour bread as many people do, I would just use old dough for the next days bake and not keep a starter at all - the easiest method of of all  

happy baking