The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

What happend to my breads???

fusan's picture
fusan

What happend to my breads???

So I used my usual recipe to make my usual breads.

During the last few weeks I've done everything to make by breads sour again and this is what I have changed in my quest for sourness...

  • Keep my starter at a lower hydration (50%) in the fridge
  • Keep the temperature higher (85 deg F) for the Levain
  • Used whole wheat and/or whole rye flour
  • Longer final proofing (12+ hours) in the fridge
  • More Levain (30% of the total flour)

This morning, when I took the breads out of the fridge, I noticed that they were more proofed than usual. It was strange since I didnt really change much from my last no-sour bake. The ovenspring was pretty good and after I baked the breads, I noticed a deeper, better smell of bread/wheat. More concentrated and characteristic. When I cut the first slice and tasted it, I discovered that it was actually much more sour but not too much and very well ballanced. It is propobly the best breads I ever made!

The only thing I changed, compared to my usual way, was to give the Levain more time between every feeding. I gave it about 2 hours more after it has peaked.

The question is, can this little change really ad a LOT more flavour and sourness to the breads when all the others didnt?

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

changes (those with the dots)  including the extra time letting the starter mature, add to increased fermentation, flavour and sourness (higher temp and whole wheat) will raise yeast numbers and encourage the supporting bacteria colonies living in the starter. It is good for both the starter and the levain to do this.  

...give the Levain more time between every feeding. I gave it about 2 hours more after it has peaked.

(Feeding or building?  It is my understanding and I am often confused, that a feeding involves a starter and a build involves a levain.)  

A starter or levain is by no means "on the decline" when it peaks, there is still food for the culture to produce gas for an extended amount of time (dependant on temperature, mobility and type of food.)  In most cases the gluten structure will collapse onto itself (equate to folding) and rise again albeit not as high if the gluten matrix is deteriorating.  What is happening is that the supportive bacteria that encouraged the yeast growth are again increasing along with fermenting byproducts adding more complicated flavour notes.  These may or may not be sour tasting in the finished bread.

If the levain is a small amount of the total flour, the deterioration of it's gluten is not so important.  If the levain makes up a significant part of the dough weight, caution is advised as to how long the fermentation process should extend before adding fresh flour.     

If the starter is being refreshed or fed, I tend to watch the yeast and make sure it has started to rise (evidence that bacteria have worked enough to encourage the yeast.)  Once set into the fridge the bacteria catch up on their own.  On the counter, it is better to wait several hours after a peak so the bacteria can re-establish themselves and lower the pH to protect the yeast and culture from invasion.  Examples: peaking at 6 hrs... wait 8 hrs to feed;  peaking at 4 hrs, wait 6 hrs to feed;  Peaking at 8 hours, wait 10 to 12 hrs to feed.  (I may just put peaked starter into a dough, and save the left overs to age a few hours first before feeding.) 

fusan's picture
fusan

has allready been incoperated for some time now, but didnt make the breads much more sour. What made a big difference was to leave the Leavin 2 hours longer after it peaked, between every build.

(Feeding or building?  It is my understanding and I am often confused, that a feeding involves a starter and a build involves a levain.) 

In this case, it must be building because I ment the Levain. Didnt even know that its called building when refered to the Levain, but it makes sence and its easier to understand.

What is happening is that the supportive bacteria that encouraged the yeast growth are again increasing along with fermenting byproducts adding more complicated flavour notes.  These may or may not be sour tasting in the finished bread.

The extended build time is the only variable I added to the equation so it seems like its the piece that was missing in order to make the breads more sour. Im keeping a log for all my bakes with temperature, amounts and ingredient, so Im pretty sure it must me it. Maybe this causes some symbiotic effect with the other changes to gain the sourness that was missing before.

Actually I will try to replicate my last bake and hope to get similar results. But with this bake, Im using some fresh (with fresh I mean compared to the last sourdouh, that was in the fridge for a month without any feedings) sourdough to build the Levain, so it might be different this time anyway.

If the levain is a small amount of the total flour, the deterioration of it's gluten is not so important.  If the levain makes up a significant part of the dough weight, caution is advised as to how long the fermentation process should extend before adding fresh flour.

I dont think I get this line... You say to watch out, if the Levain is a big part of the total flour, because it ferments faster. I assume you mean once its mixed in the final dough, it ferments faster. But then you say before adding fresh flour, so I got confused thinking you refer to the Levain fermenting faster. If you refer to the Levain, then is'nt the fermentation the same whether you build a small or a big amount of Levain as long as you keep the propotions the same? If you refer to the amount of Levain in the final dough, then I got it, because Im the master of overproofed breads :-)

On a side note... the new starter allready trippled the second build of the Levain after 2h & 30m at 86 deg F. I guess its active. I just hope it brings the sourness to the party :-)

 

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

you want to promote methods that increase the LAB to yeast ratio in starters, levain builds and finally the dough.  Using whole grain flour and higher hydration promote a higher LAB to yeast ratio, but in my mind, temperature and time are more important.  Even more important is to increase the LAB to yeast ratio in the starter and levain rather than the dough.

Doing starter builds using whole grains at high temperatures and then retarding the finished starter for storage for a very long time is the most important thing of all/  Doing a long. slow,high temperature levain build from a small amount of this starter. at high hydration using whole grains is the next most important thing. Rather than doing a 3 stage  - 4 hour leach stage levain build I have started doing a 4th build or even better, just stirring down the 3rd stage and let it double again before retarding it for 24-48 hours before it hits the autolyse.

Your adding hours to each stage of the high temoerature levain build  is one of the things you can do to increase sour.  

If you are doing a high temerature levain build you are increasing LAB and restricting yeast.  This means more sour and longer proofs than a normal levain would make so increasing the levain amount to 30% makes for a more sour bread too. But using  less also would do the same thing since time is on your side and more time using a high LAB to yeast ratio levain means more sour too..

In your case,  I think l the longer levain builds you did where LAB were favored over yeast because of high temperature and increasing the levain that had more LAB and less yeast in it than normal to 30%,  made the bread more sour than usual.

Happy baking 

fusan's picture
fusan

and even though I did exactly like last time, the breads turned out different. Not a big difference but noticable. They were not as sour and deep in the flavour.

In order to get more sour now, Im running a new experiement with a very little amount of Levain (10%) and a 10-12 hour bulk ferment at 70 deg F. (everything else is the same). Then, depending on how bulk fermentation turns out I might form the breads and retard them in the fridge for another 12 hours. Pretty excited if Im gonna get overproofed breads... again.