The Fresh Loaf

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Where am I going wrong?

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

Where am I going wrong?

Hello everyone I've just signed up to the fresh loaf, I've been looking in here to try and help fix my bread but haven't gotten anywhere. 

Basically every time I make bread I get this Sort of texture (picture shown above). I want to make a basic loaf tin sort of bread that doesn't always require a loaf tin. 

I think in this one there's too much oil, if anyone could help id be forever happy. 

My recipe which ive been changing lots over the past 6 months but isn't getting better is this:

450grams of flour (tescos finest)

320 of UHT milk

14 grams of yeast (5grams of sugar to activate yeast)

one teaspoon of salt 

12grams of lard

15 grams of olive oil 

I put flour and salt in mixer. Heat milk and add yeast and sugar to active yeast. I then add these too the flour with the lard and mixer with dough hook. 

I then let it prove and spread oil around the mixing bowl. After an hour I flatten and let it prove on a stone plate for 30mins, pop it in the oven for 1 hour on 150 and voila. 

 

Its not awful bread but I want a light, fluffy, prefect for toast or by itself with a bit of butter sort of bread.

 

Thanks :)

 

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Lard and Oil together.

Have you tried a non enriched bread yet with success?

 

Try this...

 

500g Bread Flour

300g Water

8g Salt

0.5g dried yeast (lit. tip of teaspoon)

 

Prepare dough in the evening and knead till ready. Then place in lightly oiled dough bowl and  cover with clingfilm. Leave to bulk ferment overnight for 8-10 hours (till nicely risen and bubbly).

Next morning knock back and shape. Final proof for 35-40min and then bake in pre-heated oven.

What do you think?

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

Do you leave this at room temp to bulk ferment?  I'm assuming yes; hence the small amount of yeast;.  And, if so, what is room temp overnight for you?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

I live in the UK so room temp is 21C (69.8F) or bit less at night. Very simple recipe which taught me that simply doing less yeast with longer fermentation time brings out better flavour. Doing it with fresh yeast is even better if you can get hold of some. If you can then 1-2g will be fine overnight. If it's warmer where you live then shorten the bulk fermentation time or if it's colder then see how it is in the morning and do a bit extra. In the UK with 0.5g of dried yeast, or 1-2g fresh yeast, it's not going to over proof if you don't catch it within a strict specific time. I'm not quite sure on the exact time that's why I say 8-10 hours but I've never over proofed yet with this recipe.

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

Thabk you. Sounds perfect for the white bread lovers but with the overnight proof probably much tastier. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Your bread is improving while you sleep :)

Let us know what you think.

Enjoy!

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

I've never tried an overnight prove I'm looking forward to seeing the results

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

I don't normally leave it overnight, i normally leave it for just over an hour in the kitchen at room temp. It probably gets to around 8 Celsius at night here at the minute though

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

One will have to reduce the yeast like in the recipe. It's literally a few grains. But the long fermentation gives it a great taste. Sounds like it gets quite cold where you are at night at the moment. So wrap it in something warm or find a warm place in the kitchen or you can do this through the day starting in the morning. Make the dough in the morning then bulk ferment through the day for 8-10 hours, then knock back, shape and bake.

Start off with this plain and simple recipe and if you then wish to add some oil or butter. I'd say up to 25g butter or two tablespoons oil max. But I wouldn't do both.

Because it's fermenting at room temperature for a long time i'm not sure about eggs in this situation.

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

I'll give this a try, I only used lard and oil because my friend said it helps the shelf life? thanks for your reply I'll keep you updated. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that's ok for chocolate cake.  :)    

Raise oven temp to at least 200°C     210° or 220°C even better.  ..and try the above recipe.  Later you can use water and milk together for a softer crust.

I see the bottom crust is missing in the photo...  what's the set up?  

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

Its quite soft, sometimes a bit doughy,

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Can you get more heat from the oven and bake on a dark surface?

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

It's a fan assisted and I'm baking it in a stone plate. It's a fairly good home oven, I normally put some water in the over in a separate dish to allow a bit of steam. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

heating the stone plate with the oven and letting the dough rise on a piece of baking parchment or well floured surface.  The parchment can then be transferred to the oven using a flat plate, flat cookie sheet or a piece of sturdy cardboard or wood.  That might give the loaf some great initial heat underneath to rise before it sets.  Will also help avoid doughy bottoms.

Sticking the stone plate cold with cold dough into a hot oven takes time to deliver heat to the dough.   The plate will first be taking the heat instead of radiating it.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Keep the lard, up the temperature to 360 F, add an egg, up the total amount to get the right size for a tin and then bake it off.  The call it great sandwich bread that makes some fine toast too,

Happy baking 

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

I'll try without oil, when I mixing the yeast in just pop an egg in?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in the egg when the milk goes in will up the hydration to 79%   If you want to keep the hydration the same since the egg has 35 g of water in it you can reduce the milk by that amount and the hydration will remain the same.

to figure out how much dough you need for your pan, just put it on a scale and fill it with water to get the weight .  Then take that number times ,6 (60%) and that is how much dough you need,  That will fill the pan 60% full and when the middle rises 1 inch above the rim in the middle is when it goes in the heat.

Happy baking 

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

If I add an egg and leave everything The same will it just make a moist type of loaf?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

other ingredients the same except make sure to dumping the oil completely.  But, you will want to use a pan for this high hydration recipe and watch it closely so it doesn't over proof in the tin.  Like Mini Oven says... at 80% hydration you either put it in a tin or call it ciabatta.

Happy baking 

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

is the milk? Too hot will destroy the yeast...scald the milk then cool to at least 100F or 38C.

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

I put it in the micro for a minute it's just look warm when it comes out

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

I was going to mention scalding the milk but then noticed it's UHT milk, so it'll already have been scalded. I can't help thinking that using fresh milk would be so much nicer, however.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is missing from the recipe and be sure to include more shaping after the bulk rise.  I added the bold parts...

"I then let it prove and spread a small amount of oil around the mixing bowl. After an hour I flatten (add:  roll up tightly and pinch the seam shut then)  let it prove seam side down on a stone plate for 30mins (or more until is is puffy and roughly doubled in size) pop it in the hot oven for 1 hour at 200°C and voila."  

I would also add a steam pan with about a cup of boiling water.   :) 

 

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

I didn't know about putting it seam side down I'll be doing that. This might sound silly but should the stone plate be preheated in the oven or put in cold with the bread?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

35-40min final proofing after shaping. 

Shape into a boule or a batard onto a peel, if you have one, or baking parchment (I suggest you watch some YouTube videos for shaping ideas) then final proof. 

In the meantime preheat your oven, stone and steam tray. 

When ready score the dough, put water into steam tray and transfer the dough onto the stone. 

Bake till golden brown. 

 

P.s. you said stone plate! Is it flat? Is it like a pizza stone? If so then preheat if its easy to transfer onto. If not and you have to final proof in the stone then you'll have to put the dough and stone into a cold oven otherwise it'll crack. 

Thefreshmarksman's picture
Thefreshmarksman

The results are great everyone thank you all. I left it over night to rise, used less milk and just a little bit of oil. 

next trial run I'm going to try half milk half water and and egg :)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Glad to hear you like it. I'm not sure about adding an egg with long ferments. Some say its fine and others aren't sure its OK to do so. I think overnight and if its not too hot it should be fine so I'm told. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

A poolish is taking a significant part of the recipe and doing an overnight ferment. The next morning you add the rest of the ingredients to make the dough etc. 

For example...

 

Night before:

Preferment half the flour, an equal amount of water by weight + 0.5g dried yeast. 

 

Next morning:

Add the rest of the flour, rest of the water/milk, salt, egg, oil and an extra 1.5g yeast. Form the dough and knead. 

Allow it to double (should take a couple of hours)

Knock back and shape then final proof till ready.

Bake. 

 

This way you get the depth of flavour with the pre-ferment overnight and you won't have any problem with the egg and milk. 

What do you think? 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

500g Bread Flour

300g Water

8g Salt

0.5g dried yeast (lit. tip of teaspoon)

 

Will now be...

250g bread flour 

150g water

0.5g dried yeast

 

250g bread flour

150g milk (or 115g to keep the hydration the same as we're now adding an egg)

1 egg

3/4 tablespoon oil

8g salt

1.5g dried yeast

 

 

Night before: 250g bread flour + 150g water + 0.5g dried yeast. Combine and leave to ferment overnight.  

(BTW... Since you wish to do half and half water and milk and we don't want the milk in the poolish I've lowered the hydration. The pre-ferment is now actually a 60% hydration dough which now makes it a 'biga'. Same principle as a poolish just a lower hydration).

 

Day of:

In another bowl add 250g bread flour and mix in 1.5g yeast + 8g salt. This is the dry mixture.

To your bowl with the biga add 150g milk, 1 lightly beaten egg and 3/4 tablespoon oil. Combine as well as you can breaking up the biga. This is the wet mixture. As Dabrownman said above the egg will increase the hydration. If you wish to keep the hydration the same then reduce the milk to 115g. 

Now add the dry mixture from step one to the wet mixture and form the dough.

Knead. 

Bulk Ferment till doubled (about 2-3 hours).

Knock back and shape.

Final proof till just under doubled (85-90%). Should take about 30min but you'll need to be the judge here. 

Bake. 

 

If you're doing this freestanding then may I suggest you keep the hydration down. The egg plus oil will increase the hydration too much to final proof with no support and it'll spread too much. Perhaps a loaf tin will be best or final proofing in a basket till ready to tip out onto preheated stone. 

If you lower the hydration as advised by Dabrownman then it'll be fine. You can proceed like your previous recipe. 

 

 

Tommy gram's picture
Tommy gram

Milk in bread goes against my religion.

Using Lard makes it like seem like a scene in a Hieronymus Bosh painting.

Please, Water flour salt and heat and oh yea, Time. Nothing else need invade the ancient simplicity of true bread..

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Then why bother yourself with salt?  

Tommy gram's picture
Tommy gram

Mini Oven; Please be aware I meant not to be snide but only humourous. 

Only three measly ingredients and yes, genius that I am, I have forgotten the salt on two occasions. Results not tasty. Not bad for five years regular effort.

Maybe I should try to make that bread someday. But the ancient way of bread, fermented nearly the same way as the egyptians made it captivates me.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The problem is I keep seeing colourful late 1400, early 1500 Flemish paintings in front of me.  Yikes! 

Lard doesn't do that for me but to each his own, I guess.  Please don't tell me what butter does.  

I did see a Hieronymus Bosh painting in Venice a few years back, but there is more going on than just adding shortening to flour.  Throw in some catchup and egg shells, spears and naked bodies and I might be getting there.  :)

Tommy gram's picture
Tommy gram

Hilarious, thanks for the guffaw. 

As for Butter......

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Strange as it may seem, neither your taste nor your religion are necessarily shared by everyone else. Most people notice this by the time they become adults any manage to deal with the disappointment without adopting a holier-than-thou stance.

rgconner's picture
rgconner

I think he is joking.

I can't think of a religion that has a milk restriction unless is it is a vegetarian one, and he uses lard, which rules out the two major dietary restricted ones, Islam and Judaism, as well as all the vegetarian ones.

 

Either case, he was certainly not being holier than thou, he was just saying he would not add milk.