Double or Triple in Size - what allows it to have enough strength to double
I have been making bread for quite some time ( nearly all 100% home milled wheat ) and have noticed that some recipes call for bulk fermentation until the dough doubles in size, some call for less and say increase 50% in volume. I have learned from past mistakes that if you let that dough go too long, and it grows to 2 1/2 to 3 times its size, it gets gooey, and when you try to shape it, it does not work well and won't get any oven spring ( I would say over proofed, though often I see that term used in connection with final proof )
Other recipes, for example, Ciabatta, call for tripling in volume in bulk ferment, and seem to show no ill effects in final proofing from that much development. Of course, you don't shape ciabatta as you would some other doughs, but I actually use it in sandwich pans and it still comes out great.
So my question is why can some doughs handle tripling in volume, and others not. Is it a function of hydration, type of flour, yeast running out of food? Or is it that all doughs can triple in bulk fermentation, but that once you get past doubled in volume, you can't do much in the way of shaping.
Long fermentation can result in the break down of gluten, especially with an acidic dough, such as, sourdough. This will also occur if you use milk, including powdered milk, that has not been scalded.
Ford
Ford, thanks, I should have clarified, I only use Flour, Water, Salt and starter in most of my breads. I have tried long ( 12 hour bulk ferment ) and shorter times ( 3 to 4 hours ) as well. My confusion is that in a recent sourdough post they suggested 90 F for bulk fermenting , I just did that and the taste was great, just not sure how high I can let it go before I need to shape for the final rise.
will favor LAB reproduction over yeast. Yeast Tend to reproduce best around 82-84 F and LAB like 90-93 . At every temperature LAB will out produce yeast but at the higher ones the LAB really kick in bit the yeast reproduction is retarded so it is only reproducing like it does at 64 F much slower. As a result the LAB outproduce yeast by a wide margin 13 to 1.
At high temperatures so much acid is being produced by the LAB that it starts to attack the gluten strands and break them down causing the dough to go flat when it hits the heat, comes out of the basket or is scored. Everything is relative. Lower temperatures means that bulk and final proof will take longer where higher ones means that they should be kept shorter so that the gluten strands stay intact. Things happen very fast at 92 F
If you do a long cold retard for bulk ferment , 12-24 hours, then you want to get the dough in the fridge not long after the gluten is developed and once it comes out you want to warm it up of an hour shape it and only let it rise 50% before getting it into the oven to get great spring, bloom and open , soft yet resilient crumb. i use David Snyder as the gold standard for this kind of baking and he used AP flour too!
This is about the best white bread ever made in my book.
San Joaquin Sourdough
It is just matter of balancing the flour used and the gluten development technique with the time and temperature.
Happy baking
Whether or not you use David Snyder's exact ingredients, his method for dough making, retarding, shaping and baking sourdough is as 'perfect' an approach as I've used. My base recipe is slight different with a little less hydration but the same long bulk retard then shape & bake. The only issues I every confront is my own mediocre slashing (which is improving). Probably over 50 people have now eaten this sourdough and the comments are uniformly positive.
30 slap and folds 3 times in place of the first 3 sets of stretch and folds and to use 15% sprouted whole grains and 15% whole grains for a total of 30% whole grains instead of David's 10% whole grains. i up the hydration to 78% to compensate for the more whole grains. Because of the more whole grains, i don't get the huge holes David does but I think it tastes better and is more healthy for us diabetics.
Happy baking .
Good Morning Dabrownman, I was on the site this morning looking for some advice and think your message above might hold the key to what I'm trying to understand. I'm making FWSY's bacon bread this morning for the first time. My last bread was his country brown levain - left out overnight for bulk fermentation it was slightly more than tripled at about 69% (the coolest spot I could find), so this time I put this bread in the fridge after the necessary stretch and folds. The dough was too slack. It was slightly over fermented. The bacon bread dough has been in the fridge about 12 hours and has about doubled. The recipe calls for a triple. I'm thinking I should pull it out, let it go to room temperature for an hour, shape it and based on your comment above let it double in the basket and then bake it. In hindsight I'm thinking I should have maybe left it out for an hour or two after the stretch and folds? And should I wait for it to get closer to a triple in the fridge, or do as I've described above? As always, thank you!!
I meant it was the country brown that was slightly slack and over fermented..
rubber bands. Gluten, that is.
You can stretch and stretch and stretch.... then at some point *twang* it will snap and you've lost it. (Although you can often recover the gluten by re-kneading, but by then other stuff will have been happening and the resulting loaf won't be quite the same)
So determining the point before the "world of goo" is the tricky part and quoting doubling, or more (or less) is a relatively safe way.
100% wholemeal (as in your home milled wheat) generally won't rise as much as white wheat due to the bits of bran getting in the way so you need to make allowance for that. (And also take into account that you've lost 30% of the gluteny flour compared to a strong white in the bran too)
-Gordon