The Fresh Loaf

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Do you do extended autolyse?

kitchen_monkey's picture
kitchen_monkey

Do you do extended autolyse?

Do you do an extended autolyse for you bread dough? By extended I mean 2 hours or more. I usually make my baguette dough with 50%^ poolish. I am thinking about mixing the remaining 50% of the flour and water with the poolish and leaving it to autolyse for 2 hours before adding instant yeast and slat. 

Anyone does this, and do you see any clearly visible benefits from this extended autolyse?

Thanks

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

The benefits of any longer then 30minutes are minimal. Wholegrain will need longer for the same benefits and may be speeded up when autolysing with warmer water.

Certainly cant harm but wouldn't do any longer then 30 minutes for your current recipe.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Just re-read your idea and I see a flaw. Strict autolyse has no salt nor yeast.

Some do autolyse with yeast and then add the salt in afterwards. But the role of the salt is to control the yeast.

If you mix the polish with the rest of the flour + water then you are autolysing with yeast and no salt. So remember your fermentation times are going to differ from the recipe.

kitchen_monkey's picture
kitchen_monkey

Which yeast? I mention that I would add the yeast and salt afterwards. Unless you are referring to the yeast in the poolish, that is minimal.

 

"I am thinking about mixing the remaining 50% of the flour and water with the poolish and leaving it to autolyse for 2 hours before adding instant yeast and slat"

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

The poolish has been fermenting overnight or for however long. The yeast isn't minimal anymore.

What you could do is this...

Do the poolish as is.

With the remaining flour, water, salt and yeast... Just autolyse the water and flour for 30min. Then after 30min add the remaining yeast to the poolish and mix followed by the salt and autolyse. Combine and proceed as normal.

Or something along those lines.

What is the recipe btw.

aroma's picture
aroma

... or sponge - call it what you will - and I 'autolyse' (i.e leave it to rest without the salt) for around 45 mins to 1 hour.  I then add salt and do the usual S&F.  The 'autolyse' time is included in the Bulk Ferment time which for me is around 2 hours.   I then shape and prove as normal

kitchen_monkey's picture
kitchen_monkey

My recipe is 250g flour, 175g water (70%), 5.25g salt, .625g instant yeast.

I use 50% of the flour for the poolish and mix it with equal part water 125/125.

This leaves me with 125g of flour and 50g of water; hardly enough water to do a separate autolyse with it.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

You could do Aroma's way and mix the rest of the flour, water + yeast into the poolish (which isn't strictly an autolyse) and add the salt in later. Just take into account that the autolyse time is included in total time of fermentation.

Or you could do the pre-ferment at 60% - 125g flour + 75g water + however much yeast.

Then the next morning do an autolyse with the remainder for 30 minutes - 125g flour + 100g water.

Then combine the preferment with the autolyse + salt and proceed as normal.

 

Experiment.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

needed.  In general the more whole grains and higher protein content the longer.  many Fresh Lofiaans who do whole grain breads do 8 hours and longer to 24 hours. Autolyse is flour and water and can be done at 50% hydration or even 40% in some circumstances and longer ones can be done with salt and or in the fridge.

A Fresh Loafian from the UK, Michael Wilson, who makes some really fine panettone and other Italian breads using his kept underwater lievito madre sourdough starter.  He was kind enough to post a link to an Italian Bread Master who wrote about autolyse and i will re-post it here.

http://www.dolcesalato.com/blog/2013/05/31/giorilli-ci-spiega-la-tecnica-dellautolisi/

Happy baking

kitchen_monkey's picture
kitchen_monkey

Autolyse is flour and water and can be done at 50% hydration or even 40% in some circumstances

 

How do you mix by hand such high flour to water ratio. And after 1 or 2 hours have passed isn't the mix still a bit too hard to be effectively mixed with poolish? 

suave's picture
suave

After 2 hours of such "autolyse" there is almost no point in adding extra yeast - the dough is almost there anyway.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

After a 2 hour rest with a well developed poolish in the mix - no need for additional yeast at all - might take a bit longer to ferment and proof but the bread would probably taste better too. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

flour and water and time...  

Do that all the time.  Too long and it turns into a starter...  oh my!

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

...I mix together everything but the yeast and leave the resultant dough for 6-8 hours to give enzymes time to work on the flour, breaking it down so that it becomes digestible and nutritious.

As the enzymes will work at any temperature above freezing, the same effect can be had by leaving yeasted dough in the fridge below four degrees centigrade. The yeast will then start to work when you bring the dough out of the fridge and allow it to warm up. Warming the dough from four to 25 degrees can take many hours, however, and I find managing the process much easier of it's all carried out at a constant temperature.

suave's picture
suave

The rates of enzymatic reactions depend on temperature, so cooling the dough will slow them significantly, at the very least .

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

I have to admit to passing on the bit about low-temperatures after reading it in one of Peter Reinhart's books. I don't refrigerate my dough, so I can't comment on the degree to which enzymatic action's slowed. Do you have any idea? I presume it will vary according to the presence, or otherwise, of catalysts.

suave's picture
suave

and I don't really have time to go looking, but I imagine it'd be about the same rate as yeast. 

PS. Make no mistake - enzymes are catalysts.

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

when using a recipe / method that includes several hours to overnight for bulking and final proofing? 

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

Only as much as is relevant to handling, I'd have thought. In other words, just the bit that softens the bran and ensures the flour's absorbed sufficient water to aid gluten development.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'm out to hamper the defence mechanism of the grains against my gut bugs.   I'm sure soaking time varies with the type and amount of bran included in the flour but as a general rule... I like my dough wet at least 8 hours.   The bigger the bits, the longer the "wet time."  

As a plant, grain doesn't want to be eaten, it wants to reproduce itself.  

Jon OBrien's picture
Jon OBrien

But the question was how much autolysing matters if the dough's going to bulk ferment overnight, which should take care of the enzymatic activity. In which case the only things I can see autolysing be useful for would be to ensure the flour is fully saturated and the bran softened before any kneading or folding took place.

kitchen_monkey's picture
kitchen_monkey

I am thinking of reducing the ratio of poolish in total recipe from 50% to either 40% or 30%. The idea to save more water for the autolyse step. If I make a 30% poolish (75gflour+75gwater) I will have remaining 175g flour + 100g water. That's 57% water in the autolyse (possible to mix by hand). 

 

I wonder though if reducing the poolish ratio from 50% to 30% would reduce the taste quality of the final bread?