The Fresh Loaf

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TOO MANY LARGE BLISTERS IN DOUGH

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

TOO MANY LARGE BLISTERS IN DOUGH

Hello All,

After my bulk fermentation and I dump the dough out onto the work counter the 1st thing I notice is that there are very many extra large bubbles or if you prefer air-pockets. When I say large I mean the size of peach pits and whole cherries and whole grapes. 

Since I am using a lean dough to make baguettes I , obviously, need to preserve as many bubbles as I can in order to get a wide open crumb.  But, by the time I pop all of these monster bubbles I have lost must of the tiny air-pockets that is needed to get a wide open crumb.

I do not THINK that the problem lies in my kneading of the dough as I have the same problem whether I hand knead or I use my Kitchen Aid mixer to knead.

I have a number of good bread baking books and none of them mention this problem: Peter Reinhart, Rose Levy beranbaum, Daniel T Di Munzio.  I have very carefully watched Jeffery Hammelman´s videos and (if you watch very carefully you will see that even he has one single large bubble in his baguette shaping process.). One bubble is obviously no problem but dozens and dozens ??? 

I doubt that this has anything to do with preferments but I use BOTH a poolish AND a Pate Fermentee for extra strengh. Just thought I´d mention that. Also, total hydration is about 72 %. 

Any insight you may have would be much appreciated.  Thank you all. 

davidg618's picture
davidg618

These comments are guesses, but based on making a lot of baguettes in your hydration range.

1. Perhaps the combination of poolish and old dough yields non-heterogeneous volumes of strong and weak gluten structures. Consider dropping either the poolish or the old dough. I'd recommend dropping the old dough; it contributes considerably to the gluten network maturity, but not flavor. On the other hand, poolishes contribute mostly to flavor.

2.You might consider gently and repeatedly indenting the large bubble with your fingers, creating a cluster smaller bubbles rather than deflating (rupturing)  the larger bubbles entirely. I routinely  make poolish-based baguettes, retarding the dough fifteen hours. the resulting dough often has a half-dozen large bubbles that I deflate entirely, but I very gently partially deflate the rest of the dough, preserving most of the smaller--on the order of 1 cm. radius--bubbles.

3. Oops!--I said two, but I've thought of a third comment: you didn't state your amount of poolish yeast, or your final dough yeast. perhaps your problem is simply too much yeast.

David G

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I don't know the details of your process, but I would suggest adding a stretch and fold step (or two) to your bulk fermentation.  This will preserve an open crumb and reduce the size of the bubbles in your foam (bread dough) without making you pop them before shaping.

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

Hello Davidg618 and Doc.Dough

I appreciate your thoughts on my problema, however, unfortunately, I don´t think any of those suggestions are the problem.

I have the same problem regardless of which preferment I use, even if I only use a poolish.

Sincé I an aware that using too much yeast "masks" the flavor I worked so hard to build up I use only 3/8 tsp of active dry yeast, and sometimes instant dry yeast per 400 gm of flour (which includes all of the preferment). Can this small amount of yeast be too much ???

Though I did not include this in the post, I hand knead for 10 min then I do a series of 4 stretches and folds with a 20 min rest in between.

I´m not quite clear on Davidg618´s number 2 idea. But King Arthur customer service has just told me to bulk fernent for 45 min and do a short knead then continue ferment. Unfortunately that does not work either.

One additional thought: I have seen photos of Peter Reinhart´s fermented dough (actually, a cut-away, as if he took a large razor and sliced open his fermented dough) and it shows thousands upon thousands of tiny bubbles (Though how he managed to cut open the fermented dough without collapsing all those wonderful Little bubbles is beyond me ). I don´t think that the INSIDE of my fermented dough looks like his.

 

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

I just had another thought.  As I complete my final stretches and folds, before the start of bulk ferment,  I notice that bubbles (though not huge) are beginning to form. Only a few but they are there. Maybe my technique is wrong ?

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

It sounds like you are continuing your bulk fermentation after 90 minutes has passed. If you have an active preferment then that is probably too long. With straight sourdough, putting 28% of the flour into the starter, my total time from initial mix to shaping is 115 min, including a 20 min autolyse, 5 min mix, and 90 min of bulk ferment with one S&F in the middle.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

3/8t of yeast is not too much, but it is also not making much CO2 if your total fermentation time is 90 min (unless you are running very warm). The vast majority of the gas would seem to be coming from the yeast that originates in your preferment.

Do I understand correctly that the dough is never left to rest for more than 20 min during the entire cycle? If that is true I don't know why you would be getting big bubbles. There is not enough time for them to develop.

If you want to look inside your dough, just chill it and slice it with a sharp non-serrated blade.

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

Dough.Doc,  My bread is NOT a sourdough, just a lean dough using a poolish and SOMETIMES a pate fermentee.

Regarding times: I only meant to say that 20 minutes is the time that I let the dough rest BETWEEN stretches and folds. In the BULK FERMENT it usually lasts about 90 minutes or on a cold day longer. 

This is a real problem for me. I have studied bread baking books, Reinhart, Beranbaum, ,Di Muzio and others. I have scoured the inter-net looking for an answer. I have contacted Red Star Yeast and King Arthur Flour ,. All have ideas but none of them work,  to prevent or at least deal with those large bubbles.

If you have a specific questions I´d be only too glad to answer them.  Thank you very, very much

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

How about a detailed description of your formula, process steps and timing along with some photos of the bubbles that you see when you get ready to shape.

ciabatta's picture
ciabatta

I remember there was a time when I was getting that same issue repeatedly.  I think it had to do with improper gluten development.  When you do your stretch and folds, does the dough tear easily? is the final product very chewy (as in too strong)?  Maybe the gluten is over developed and breaking down.   I would rest the dough longer in between stretch and folds, no less than 30 minutes.   And not more then 3 sets.  when i get my 75% hydration dough going nice, it does have lots of big bubbles in there, but even if i punch it all down, in the oven it spring back with no hesitation to a very even open crumb. see my photos in the "Sourdough Ciabatta" post comments.  I get same results from both a sourdough version and a regular ap version.  Too much gluten development (too much strength) is not a good thing.

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

WoW !  VERY INTERESTING. I lke it. I had never thought that I could over develop the gluten structure by hand kneading. In answer to Ciabatta´s query : During my stretches and folds (after 10 min of hand kneading) I do NOT find that the dough tears easily. I find it, on 1st fold quite extensible , on 2nd fold less extensible and by the 4th fold it is down-right elastic. It resists being stretched at all.  Until Ciabatta´s post I thought that I was doing just great ie; getting a strong gluten development for a maximum rise and oven-spring. 

Additionally, yes, I find the crust to be a bit too chewy sometimes way too chewy. 

Unfortunately, I can not post photos. I am barely able to do these posts. I am old and a computor dummie. 

Thank you, thank you.  Tomorrow I have business in the city. It will be Sunday or Monday before I get a chance to make any more baguettes. But I´ll let you know the out-come. 

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

I just received a reply from Red Star Yeast regarding my problem with giant bubbles in the dough.

She says, "What you are describing is an indicator of dough weaking due to poor tolerance of the A.P. flour to the long fermentation. The dough is over-aging. My recommendation would be to replace 50-100% of the A.P. flour with bread flour."

She may be talking about the long preferments that I use ie over-night Poolish and over-night pate fermentee.

I make no judgement as too whether she is right. I´ve only been following Peter Reinharts and Rose Levy Beranbaum´s ideas

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

your fermentation is too long after mixing up the dough.

Think about it, your preferment and/or pate fermente are already fermented (they have had their bulk rise)  adding fresh dough gives you a short and limited time window to work the dough before it becomes over proofed.  Try shortening the poolish times with AP or going for a short working time after adding fresh flour (making final dough.)  You don't need another bulk fermentation just time for the fresh flour to hydrate before shaping and filling with gas.

What you are seeing sounds like over-proofed dough.  When the working window or time to shape and raise the dough is past, the dough becomes listless, bubbles break into each other getting larger before breaking to escape the dough. Wait a little longer and the dough soon becomes stringy and sticky.  Similar things happen when there is run away fermentation when salt is forgotten.  A lot will depend on the amount of pre-ferment in the dough recipe.  The more pre-ferment, the smaller the window to play with the dough.  If the preferment is over-proofed, the window becomes very short.

I don't quite understand when you describe:  

"...by the 4th fold it is down-right elastic. It resists being stretched at all." 

this seems contradictory.

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

According to Peter Reinhart and numerous other authors of bread baking books, elastic is the opposite of extensibility.

Elastic is when the dough OR loaf wants to SNAP BACK when stretched.

Extensiblity is when the dough or loaf will STRETCH OUT and NOT snap back.

The reason a Poolish is traditionally used when making a baguette is that the Poolish causes the dough to be more extensible ie relaxed.  Likewise, a biga would NOT be a good selection because it would cause the dough to be too ELASTIC and the baker would have to wait for the gluten to relax before continuing to shape the loaf. Thus a baker might have to wait around at each stage of shaping a baguette. 

The Powers That Be have chosen these expressions , not me. Go figure

 

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

MiniOven,

Fermentation, as you already know, is a factor of 3 things,  Time, Temp, and the amount of yeast. Thus, we can control the fermentation by altering any, or all, of these factors.  In my case, when making baguettes I use a TINY amout of yeast in the preferments AND in the dough. So, when making my baguettes I use only 1/8  to 1/4 tsp of dry yeast per 400 gram of flour , depending on the room temp. So, as you can readily see it takes awhile for the dough to ripen. Depending upon whether I retard a  ripened preferment, as opposed to letting it set overnight at room temp dictates exactly hoy much yeast I would use in that preferment.   Example , A Poolish that sets all night on the counter might receive only 1/64 tsp of dry yeast. In case you are wondering how this is done, I put 1/4 cup of water in a tiny bowl , add 1/8 tsp of dry yeast ,stir and set aside while I perpared the preferment. Then I stir the yeasted water again and use only 1 and 1/2 tsp of the yeasted water. result equals 1/64 tsp of yeast.  But most importantly, when all the ingredients are added the race starts between the yeast and the particular bacteria which you might wish to produce. Homofermentive bacteria or Heterofermentive bacteria. Unfortunately, the yeast eats much faster than does the bacteria, which is why we might see a super long fermantation of 5 or 6 hours in some of the european formulas. So, what we want for really great flavor is a well developed strain of bacteria. That is, of course, in addition to the ethyl alcohol produced by the yeast.    I hope this helps

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

One does have to think about which bacteria one is growing and the variety already in the flour.  When first developing a new starter, there is a variety of nasty bacteria I don't really want to digest that tend to show up in the first 48 hours.  Could very well be that gas from some of these bacteria is making your bubbles?   

 

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

MiniOven,  When you say STARTER  are you referring to a sourdough ? If so, then that[s an entirely different thing than I am dealing with. In all of my books, the term starter, is used to refer to naturally captured wild yeast, as in sourdough. A pre/ferment, on the other hand can be a poolish, sponge, pate fermentee, biga, barm etc. As to the bacteria development when the PREFERMENT is very wet and semi/warm  like around 65/80 degree F then a homofermentive bacteria is developed. On the other hand, if the PREFERMENT is dry, say around 55 to 65 % hydration and cool, below 60 degrees F then a heterofermentive bacteria is developed. Homofermentive bacteria makes for a mild flavor and a heterofermentive bacteria makes a more sour flavor. NO NOT SOURDOUGH. Just a relatively more sour taste compared to a loaf with lots of homofermentive bacteria.  As to developing other forms of bacteria, now we are getting into rocket science which is WAY beyond my abilities to determine as I do not own a science lab.

Now, getting back on track, here is my report on 2 tests.

As ciabatta suggested I did only 2 stretched and folds on Sundays batch. That was a big step in the right direction. While there were numerous bubbles in the dough, they were fewer in number and much more managable. It produced a nice looking loaf, but because I cut the bulk ferment time down to only 45 minutes, it, of course, was dramatically less flavorful.  Good tasting but NOT, over the top ,WOW, thats GREAT.

Todays test......   I made up a very small batch that was a STRAIGHT DOUGH, no preferment at all. Result, as I was doing the 2nd stretch and fold, following a 10 min hand knead, sure enough, there were those pesky bubbles. So, what does this tell me?  It says, quite clearly, at least to me, that my technique is  off a bit. NOT TOTALLY mind you, as Jeffery Hammelmans video on shaping a baguette, clearly demonstrates that even he has a bubble about the size of a marble, right in the center of his loaf, near the counter, which he taps down. If I had only a bubble or 2 I would be very happy. But , alas, I have dozens and dozens of bubbles. 

Next test, I will completely delete the stretches and folds. If I then have many, many large bubbles then there are only 2 possible areas of potential problems... my kneading and or too much yeast. Though to be honest I very much doubt that it could be too much yeast as I use so very little,  only 1/4 tsp yeast in the entire batch and that includes BOTH preferments, pate fermentee and a poolish. Boy, I hope its not a yeast problem as my method produces an over the top delicious loaf due to the long fermentation built ito the formula.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

well aware you are not using sourdough starter...  Please relax.  But you might inadvertently be starting one... and might be dealing with bacterial rise or gases.  Anyway...  you have now shortened the rise...

Could it be that the bubbles are scattered around concentrations of replicating yeast?  The hole idea of folding and redistributing the dough food to the yeast is to make more consistent bubbles in the crumb.  I sometimes wonder if you are not just being very observant.  

Gas will move within the dough, warm spots (more activity) will collect or produce more gas, small amounts of yeast will more likely make these spots of activity more obvious.  Could it be that by slowing the dough fermentation, with less yeast,  it is easier to observe a process that normally goes by rather quickly, that many of us take for granted?  

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

Hello, Mini Oven, Thank you for your post.

Report on my most recent loaf. Because of all the trouble I´ve been having with huge bubbles , I decided to radically change my dough in order to weed out any possibility of a problem with preferments. So, my latest and most simplified formula (single loaf only) is as follows: H So that clearly demonstrate that the problem can not beYDRATION = 65 %,   295 gram of AP flour,  127 gram of plain bottled water, 1/4 tsp of active dry yeast,  3/4 tsp salt. I carefully measure water and flour on a digital scale. Pour water in a small S.S. bowl, add the yeast and stir, let set 2 minutes, stir again.  I then add most of the flour and stir with a heavy wooden spoon until it becomes a gloppy, very sticky mass, rest 20 minutes, I then mix the salt into the remaining flour  and add it to the dough. I hand knead for exactly 10 minutes (still in the S.S. bowl,  Then I do a bulk ferment for 1 1/2 hr. Punch down and let ferment for another 1 hr.  AT THIS POINT I HAVE LG BUBBLES THOUGH NOT AS MANY AS AT A 72% HYDRATION.   Clearly,  this demonstrates that the problem was not the preferment. The change from 72% hydration to 65% makes a  difference (fewer bubbles ) but , that alone does not cure the problem. Please note that there are NO STRETCHES AND FOLDS.  In case you are wondering I use Gold Medal A.P. flour. I have previously used Gold medal Bread flour but that does not cure the problem either.  Hmmm ?????

I am more than willing to be more observent but what, exactly would I be looking for ? And when would I look ?  Thank you

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

Ten min of hand kneading seems short.  Could you form a window pane with the dough when you finished?

What was the dough temperature during the bulk fermentation?

A ninety min bulk ferment sounds short for that amount of yeast unless everything was up around 90°F.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I don't see the problems with the big bubbles,  it sounds so normal.  With instant yeast (I notice you have active) it's important the yeast dissolves and dough develops and the bulk fermentation is doubled,  I whack the bowl then hard on the counter top sending a shock wave to deflate everything without bothering to count or notice the size of bubbles, startling anyone nearby.   I usually comment "the bigger they are, the faster they fall" or some such nonsense getting great thrill and satisfaction from immediate deflation of the dough so I suppose the bubbles were quite large and uneven.   Sometimes, depending on flour's gluten content,  I'll repeat rising and falling for a second or third time with progressively shorter bulk rises just to wear down the elasticity that snapping tight feel to the dough mentioned earlier.  

What kind of yeast are you using, exactly? 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/42535/sfbi-video-shaping

Good video and note the comments... on any bubbles that show up during the shaping. (about 3/4 into the video) 73% hydration 

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

Hello,

Ciabatta:   I was told, I think that it was King Arthur Flour , that I should not go for a window pane test as it would be too strong.  Hmmm  All my books say yes to the window pane test. Additionally, I did not want to "add chew" by kneading too much.

I have never tried to test the dough temp but I´d guess that it is in the range of 68-70 degrees F which is room temp.

Bulk fermentation : Room temp is , this week, around 68 F. However, the dough does doublé, as measured by a calibrated container. It starts at 300 mL and rises to 600 mL.  Tomorrow I was planning on slightly degassing at 90 minutes and letting the dough doublé again.

Also, I went back to instant dry yeast

Todays loaf (straight dough, no preferment ) was , again at 65 % hydration. and the 90 minute bulk ferment did NOT produce any large bubbles but neither did it produce many tiny, bubbles needed for a French bread. Over-all, todays loaf was a total flop. Very poor oven spring. And, of course, with such a short bulk ferment I did not expect much flavor. I was just test methods trying to get rid of those pesky huge bubbles. I feel that I´m close to solving that problem.

Mini Oven :  Thanks for the video. I found it helpful, especially the use of the dough scrapper. I really like that technique.

I´ll report back in a day or two after I´ve done more testing.  I really appreciate all the help. Thanks

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

Todays loaves did NOT have lg, uncontrolable bubbles. I´m not sure why. Perhaps it has something to do with reducing the hydration rate from 72% down to 65% ? 

DocDough, I tested the kneaded dough just before I started the bulk ferment.  It was exactly 70 F  Also, due to a very chilly day I set the dough fermenting canister in a bowl of 80 F water and changed the water every 15 min so that the fermenting dough maintained a constant 80 F temp.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

You should try to control the starting temperature of the water, flour, and whatever pre-ferment you use to produce a dough that is at the desired dough temperature rather than trying to change it after it is mixed. While you may have had the outside of the dough at 80°F for 90 min (or whatever), the center of the dough stayed very close to 70°F the whole time unless your batch size was extremely small or you flattened it out to less than 1" thick, and even then it will take over an hour to get a constant temp through a 1" thick slab of dough from an exterior forcing function (to 1°F uniformity).

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and comparing 72% hydration to 65% hydration, the 65% will ferment slower.  

Have you let a small bowl of dough ferment until it falls apart?  (and took notes?)  Keep a spoon in it just to lift the dough to observe it, not stir it.  If you want to observe what stirring does, watch two bowls, stirring one and not the other.  Do add 2% salt to stabilise the process.

 

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

Doc.Dough : The temperature of the dough was measured with a probe thermometer. I have been warming up the water lately, due to the very chilly weather. Water temp 95 F . In a seperate bowl I mix the flours and the yeast. Then I add the salt and mix well. While stirring with a heavy wooden spoon, in a 4 qt S.S. bowl, I mix until it forms a very, very thick batter. I let rest 20 to fully hydrate. I Then procede to hand knead the dough ,while slowly adding the remaining flour yeast and salt. I then knead for a solid 13 min (up from 10 ). Then I measure the dough temp. Again it depends upon the weather but I´m getting a temp of 70 F to 73 F.  (I´ve also combined everything all at once just to see if it made any difference. It does not seem to matter.)

MiniOven, interesting idea. I´ll do that tonight and report back.

Ramses2's picture
Ramses2

Well, I FINALLY have reached the point where the problem bubbles are almost no problem. I still get a few but they are easy to deal with.  WHY :?   I changed from A.P. flour to 100 % bread flour,  I reduced the hydration down from 72 % to 67 %, I am kneading more  up from 10 min by hand to 15 min, I am now warming my wáter to 100 F before mixing and kneading. I stopped doing ANY stretches and folds.  The stretches and folds ESPECIALLY cause major problems. Even with a single stretch and fold I immediately see many bubbles under the "skin" which continue to grow and grow and grow. And, I am NOT judging the bulk ferment by "eye" but I am now using a calibrated container. The instant that the ferment reaches the right mark I dump it out onto the work counter. All told it was a combination of 6 seperate factors; each contributing to the problem.  Thank you all for your help. I really appreciate you posts. Closing this thread now. Thanks again