The Fresh Loaf

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Need help getting starter to double

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

Need help getting starter to double

Hi there,

I'm new to the world of sourdough. I ordered a dried starter online (mysourdoughstarters.blogspot.com) and have been working with it for a few weeks but have never managed to get anything more than a tiny rise and it has never come anywhere close to doubling. I feed it 1:1:1 by weight, I use organic AP flour and water filtered with a big Berkie (removes chlorine and most other nasties). Temperature is usually about 75. I've experimented with feeding it every 12 hours and 24 but still, it won't rise.

It smells pleasantly sour, almost like yogurt and does produce some bubbles - after 12 hours there are lots of tiny bubbles on the surface but I've never seen that great spongy look I see in pictures online. I feel like there's maybe too many bacteria, not enough yeasts? 

Just do last night, I did a ratio experiment. I did a bunch of little cups (just 10 g of starter in each) to compare. I tried 2:1:1, 1:1:1, 1:2:2 and 1:3:3. The most bubbly - and the only one that gave me any rise at all - was the 1:3:3 so today I'm trying 1:3:3, 1:4:4 and 1:5:5. 

I haven't yet experimented with any different hydrations.

Any suggestions?? I really want this to work!

Thanks in advance :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

with AP flour, the mixture at 100% hydration is so thin the bubbles pop on the surface instead of being trapped in the flour/water mixture.  

Try  1:2:4 (more like a dough with half water weight)  

or try 1:2:3 (S:W:F) or (Starter:Water:Flour)  which is 66% hydration instead of 1:1:1 or 100% hydration.

If you divide the water weight by the flour weight, and multiply by 100, you get the %hydration.  AP flour hydration is trapping gas and rising from 50% hydration to about 75% hydration.  !00% hydration gets you great aromas but not much rise.  Thicken it up a bit!  :)

It sounds like your starter is working to me.

aspitznagel's picture
aspitznagel

I recently went from feeding my AP starter 1:1:1 ratio as it wasn't rising and was very thin, to 1:2:1. It starter to rise beautifully and was doubled by about 18 hours. At 24 hours i discarded half and fed it again. Is it best to not feed it again until it starts to fall ? Also, with this method do you still need to wait until the starter is doubling every 6-8 hours before you can bake with it? 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

at peak (discard and feed) the yeast population will increase and speed up.  just keep track and feed flour it at least double the weight amount of starter culture.  

Arjon's picture
Arjon

I'd guess the very first thing you did wasn't a 1:1:1 feeding but rather adding some water to some dried flakes. How much of each? 

I'm still quite new to SD myself, but I imagine that how thin the reconstituted starter was before the first feeding would impact how it behaves once you start feeding it. 

And with all due deference to Mini Oven's far greater knowledge, my 100% AP starter fes 1:1:1 is capable of more than doubling. Just this morning, I had left some on the counter longer than intended, and it was closer to 3x than 2x. Might be due to my AP being Canadian. 

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

Canadian here too! PC Organics AP flour. :)

i just followed owed the instructions that came with my starter.  I dissolved the packet in 1/2 cup water and added 1/2 flour. 12 hours later, another 1/2 cup of flour. 12 hours later, dump out half leaving about 1/2 cup starter in har and feed 165 g flour and water, repeat every 24 hours. When this wasn't working, I deviated.

I thought it might be too chilly so one night, I put it in my oven with the light on but it got too warm (95 degrees) - it didn't seem dead though so I pressed on. The other thing that has occurred to me is that I also culture water kefir in my kitchen and use wooden spoons to stir it. I use these same wooden spoons to stir my starter. I sometimes wonder if the kefir bacteria have gotten into my starter and gone wild! 

I will definitely try a thicker feed tonight though and see where that gets me! Thanks so much for your replies!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just thicken it up a little bit.  Stay in tune with your starter and let it peak out instead of just double.  Let it eat food and put out maximum activity before feeding again, also with more flour than a !:1:1 to get the yeasts multiplying.  

The reason I mention a 1:2:3 ratio is because it is a simple and common sourdough recipe using any amount of starter.  If you feed your starter with this ratio, you can time it to first peak and get some idea as to how long your first rise will take considering your kitchen conditions.  Please don't dump this starter, it sounds fine so far.  

You may also find that there is some correlation with the amount of food,  1:1:1 double,  1:2:2 more than doubble,  1:5:5 quadruple or more...  the more food the longer it ferments and the more gas being produced.

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

So let's just say that *if* I didn't have enough yeasts because the bacteria were overpowering them... Would I need to start fresh? Or is there a way to get some more yeast in there??

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

A starter will double depending on hydration and flour used. Using a high hydration bread flour wont produce as much rise as with whole rye flour. Bubbles tend to be bigger with whole rye than same hydration white bread flour. And AP flour even more so. A lower hydration starter will rise more so. Everyone thinks that one can only make bread if their starter doubles when really it depends on manyh factors. 

Make a small dough with your starter. As if you're making bread. 

 

100g bread flour

56g water

2g salt

20g starter @ 100% hydration (no need to feed it as you've been continuously feeding it and keeping it in a mature state)

 

This will give you a final hydration of 60% dough. 

 

Mix the 20g of starter into 56g water till fully dispersed. 

Add the 100g bread flour and make rough dough. 

Rest for 30min

Sprinkle salt on top and knead dough for 10min. 

Cover and leave for 6 hours.

 

Let us know how much it grows and see if it reacts like a normal dough. 

If it grows the knock back and shape into small bun. 

Final proof till ready then bake in preheated oven. 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Add the starter from the discard when you feed. 

Don't take it from a freshly fed starter.

So use the discard in your dough trial. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

always.  Your starter is too thin.  fed it like she says and get the hydration to 66% and don't feed it again until it doubles.  LAB don't overpower yeast they should outnumber then by 100 to 1 in a normal culture any.  The best temperature for yeast is 84 where the reproduce the fastest but 75 F isn't too low either;

The two mos common problems for new SD bakers is that that their starter is too wet and they feed i too much too often

Happy SD baking ,

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Mini Oven is right, since you are using AP flour your starter will be to thin with your 1:1:1 feeding.

I feed my starter with strong bread flour as I have it always at hand since I bake so much bread, why not give my starter the best food too:)

I am leaning towards the stiff starters because they give a more sour taste and they are easier to maintain.

I have a 80% hydration starter wich is very stiff since I feed mine with strong bread flour and it gives a fantastic nice sour taste too:)

Mine tripples and is healthy and happy.

Even with a 100% hydration mine doubled fine and I guess it is because I feed with strong bread flour.

Do not get yourself muddled up with all those little cups for testing, just take Mini Ovens advice , she is always right:)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Will be the first to admit it.  I also get forgetful more often.  I can get knocked off my bread stool just as easy as anyone else.  

By the way, the starter must be building up in your Canadian kitchen.  Here's a good starter muffin recipe using discard.

Takes one cup of starter!  makes 6 to 8 muffins (can also scoop into a buttered and flour bread or cake pan!  I wanted to double my recipe but mil made apple pie last night.  You can also change out the flours and use any kind of fruit combo you like.  I seem to up the fruit a little and use up my frozen.  

Mike Avery's  Sourdough Blueberry Muffin recipe

Oil or butter your tins and dust with flour (crumbs or grated nuts.) Turn on the oven.

The wet:   combine wet ingredients in the bigger of two bowls

  • 1 egg  (55g)   (no shells please)
  • 1 cup stirred ripe sourdough starter (225g) (About 100% hydration)
  • 1 tsp vanilla extract   (5g)
  • 1/4 cup oil  (I like butter flavoured pop corn oil, coconut or whatever)  (56g)

The dry:   In the slightly smaller bowl...

  • 1 cup whole wheat flour  (130g) (here is where it gets interesting...  I like spelt and combining favourite flours)
  • 1/4 tsp table salt  (1.5g)
  • 1 tsp baking soda  (5.8g)  (sift to break lumps)
  • 1/4 cup sugar (your choice, if honey or other syrup, reduce amount and add to wet ingred.)  (50g)

Stir with a whisk or fork until well blended and then drop in...

  • 1/2 cup blueberries  (or any other cut up or frozen fruit, nuts get real creative here...) 

...and coat with flour.  Now quickly add the dry ingredients to the wet ones and only stir to wet the flour, It can be lumpy and thick but not dry, sometimes the fruit look a little floury but baking takes care of that.  Into the tins and bake in hot oven approx. 20 min at 220°C  or 425°F  until skewer comes out clean.  

It's a great basic recipe so have some fun with it!  :)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Blueberry Muffins. Yum!

Sarah LuAnn's picture
Sarah LuAnn

Glad I decided to look though this thread, now I have a new recipe to use up my discard! And I just bought some blueberries the other day. :-)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the oldest starter sample you have and just let it stand out until it smells beery, no food, a cover and just stir a few times a day to take a good whiff of it.  When you start smelling beerish, give it just a spoon of flour to thicken it and see what it does.

Q's

Does the starter culture separate into flour on the bottom and water on top?

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

I've only been baking with SD for about a month, so my memories of what it was like for me starting out are still quite recent. There's a ton of knowledge here on TFC, which made it very tempting to try to use a lot of it. I won't go as far as saying I confused myself, but I do think I tried to do too much too soon. For instance, I started fiddling with multiple starters using different flours before I knew my first starter (the 100% hydration AP one) well enough to have a solid grasp on how it behaves and thus to bake consistent loaves with it. 

While I'm sure some people are more capable in terms of being better able to do more sooner, I do suggest you consider KISS and be watchful for signs that you may be getting ahead of yourself.  

drogon's picture
drogon

I bake (& sell) sourdough breads daily fwiw...

Your starter is probably doing OK. Try baking with it. What have you got to lose? Some flour, heat ... So what. Just try and see what happens. Chances are, you'll make a loaf that's edible - it might not be a showstopper, but hey, not bad for a first time :-)

I keep my wheat starter in the fridge and it's at 100% hydration. If I take 100g out, then I put back in 50g flour and 50g water and it goes right back into the fridge.

If I want 500g of starter, then I take 100g mother, add to this 200g flour and 200g water, leave it covered for a few hours at room temperature (5-6 hours) then it's good to go.

I typically use between 30% to 40% of the flour weight in the final recipe as starter. So a recipe calling for 800g of flour would have 240g of starter in it. I almost always mix & knead in the evening and bake in the morning. That works for me!

As Arjon here said - KISS: Keep it Super Simple (yea, I know - many other variants ;-) forget fancy ratios until you've baked a few loaves and have established  a "baseline" which you can go back to, if needed.

And do enjoy baking! Nothing better than a house full of the smell of fresh bread. (And if it comes out a bit heavy? Well, it'll make good toast!)

-Gordon

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

i am definitely not keeping it simple at the moment. It's never been my specialty!! 

So here's where I'm at. I tried Mini's suggestion of thickening it up, I did 1:2:3. After 12 hours I have a tiny bit of rise, I'm going to let it keep going to see if it will continue. Just for fun, I tried a 1:2:2 where I used 90% AP and 10% rye. It was only a really small sample but it did rise. I included a picture.

Havent tried any dough yet. My 4 year old is sick and my 11 month old is... Well... An 11 month old.

I really appreciate all the advice!

 

Arjon's picture
Arjon

I know from experience (and not just with SD) that I have a tendency to let it pull at least part of my attention away from the more important objective. In the case of SD, I knew in my rational mind that my first goal was to have an active starter (just one) that I could bake with on a reasonably predictable schedule (like drogon who mixes in the evening and bakes in the morning). I think I'm basically there now, but only after my own playing around that, while maybe not completely useless in the long run, definitely slowed my progress toward said goal. 

I did manage to avoid some temptation by starting with a straightforward all-white 123 SD, and by holding myself back (so far) from trying to make very different loaves each time. Making variations on the straight white 123 by subbing part of the while flour for something else and/or putting in various add-ins affords lots of room for variety and semi-satisfies my urge to experiment but doesn't take me far enough into unknown territory where inedible disasters become a concern. 

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

Oh and no, the culture doesn't separate into flour on bottom, water on top.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

doesn't rise any higher, then leave it alone for a day or two, or three until it smells sharper, more fermented.  Just leave it covered and standing and pick it up and swirl it on occasion.   Take a break from it. (Yay!)   You may be right that bacteria are thriving too well so let's see them die back, perhaps that's what it needs, a push to the next phase and a drop in pH that comes with just leaving it stand there to ferment (yeastiate.) <-- new word      

12 hours is a little early,  want to know what it does in the next 12 hrs.  note temp.

Mini

Looking at the latest  feed,  the rise in the 1:2:2 could be the rye...  Rye is full of yeasts and bacteria and makes great sourdough food.   It could also be because it contains more water than the 1:2:3  which also speeds fermentation.  Hang on to it and watch this one as well.  It might be the one that perks up even if it is not the original starter.  

(The site that sold you the starter states that they are very much interested in your feed back, I would contact them also explaining your problem.)  

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

So the 1:2:3 isn't doing much so I'm going to leave it like you say and see. The one I tried with rye got fed again this morning and has risen (but not quite doubled yet) so I'm going to check that one in the morning as well. In the meantime, I decided to abandon all my little cups and try a small loaf of bread. I just used a simple beginner's recipe and don't have high hopes but we'll see! It's rising now and I'll try to bake In the morning. 

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

So the loaf is pretty flat on top but I will be the first to admit that I know absolutely nothing about loaf shaping. The inside is fairly light and moist, it tastes good... not bad for a first try?? 

I'm going to keep feeding the 10% rye starter and see where it goes...

Arjon's picture
Arjon

I'd expect that as your starter matures and becomes more predictable and as you learn what kind of timing to expect for dough to be ready to bake, your loaves will be less dense and more domed. 

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

I'll try contacting the site again. My first try didn't get any response. Also, the 1:2:3 deflated and smelled pretty boozy without ever getting to double its volume. The best rise I could get from it was about 20%. Should I keep feeding it at that ratio to see what happens?

Temp is still at 75.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

how does it taste?  If sour, then feed again same ratio.  

What is your gut feeling about the aroma?  

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

Get some rye flour and make your own starter.  The rye seems to work really well.  I did an experiment this week.  I had originally started my rye sour with some of my wheat mother.  This week I just took rye flour and water, mixed them together in a little half cut tuperware container and let them sit on the counter.  House temp hovers around 60 dF this time of year.

The next day it had separated so I discarded (something I rarely do) half and fed it with more rye flour and water...about 3 teaspoons flour and slightly more water. I did this two more times over three days and by the third day I saw pretty good activity....the starter had double and was fluffy but not really sour smelling.  I didn't go any further but if I continued with this for another 4-5 days, I'm sure I would have had a pretty good starter.  I actually just fed that to Rodney....my rye starter.

I keep my established starters in the fridge, taking out only what I need to create a levain build...using whatever flour will be predominant in that particular bread.  I feed them when they start to go low but at least once every one or two weeks.  They are healthy.

I too am new at this.  I found what works for me.  Hope it does for you.

Wendy

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

So the 1:2:2 with 10% rye is still happy, it's the one on the left, it looks like it about doubled sometime in the night. The one on the right was the 1:2:3 but I ran out of AP so I did it with WW and rye. 

Maybe my starter was hungry for some heavier fours??

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Bake with it!!

Looks fine to me.

WendySusan's picture
WendySusan

get baking!

I mostly use white whole wheat to feed my starter unless I want more rye flavor, then half of each....never bread or AP.  Just my own method.

RRebecca's picture
RRebecca

I put together some pizza dough for my little girl's birthday tomorrow! It's doing a slow rise in the fridge. Will try bread on the weekend!