Am I overfeeding my starter?
Hi so first post here, this site has been awesome for me in my endeavors into sourdough and artisan breads but I haven't been able to find a thread that specifically nails down some of my questions thus far... here goes:
I'm in the middle of my second attempt at a sourdough culture and I've hit some killer bumps so far I think. My first starter (all white flour) I was keeping at 100% hydration and feeding as per Thomas Keller's instructions (start with a 100% hydration mix of AP White flour and water, let be for 24 hours then feed at a 1:1:1 ratio every 12 hours) and I gave up after seeing no real activity after about 6 days. It started doubling and bubbling around day 2, but by day 4 or so it was a lifeless mess.
My second starter (the one I'm working with now) I began with whole-wheat flour (to get more wild yeast incorporated) and I had been feeding with 50/50 whole wheat flour to white AP flour and tap water that had sit out for 24 hours. I let it sit for 24 hours, then fed, then sit another 24 hours, and I've been feeding it every 12 hours since then. It was looking AWESOME by day 2 or 3 (doubling in 8 hours, bubbling throughout) but in the last 2 or 3 days it has been bubbling much less and barely rising if at all. I stopped using tap water and have since been using Poland Springs bottled water for about 4 feedings and at day 2 or 3 I began using 25/75 mix of whole wheat flour to white AP. Could either of these changes in the feeding have effected my starter culture?
My hunch is that I'm overfeeding my culture and not letting the yeast take hold, or that by feeding it whole wheat flour consistently i'm introducing too much new life? With my starter appearing as lifeless as it has been, I stirred in an additional 15-20g of whole wheat flour about two or three hours after feeding this morning.
OH YEAH my other worry is that even at 100% hydration, my starter has been consistently soupy, even if I end up only hydrating about 90% during the feeding process.
Other information: My starter has been at room temp it's whole life (fluctuating between upper 60s and mid-high 70s). I keep about 150g or so of starter at any one point. When I say I added a whole wheat supplement, it was probably two tablespoons or so, maybe closer to 10g. It was just enough to make the starter hold a mound in the jar, but since then it's already returned to a much more runny consistency.
What are your guy's thoughts and/or suggestions for jump-starting my starter? I've been battling with starters for about 2.5 weeks so far and I'm beyond ready for some reliable starter to make some bread already!
a SD Culture to go lifeless during day 4-6. That is a very good sign and not one that it is dead. The first few days of activity is the wrong and bad LAB and yeast acting bad. As the culture get more acidic the good LAB and yeast will start taking over on Day 4 but not really get going until day 6 or so. After day 6 the culture will pick up activity for all the right reasons. So many people toss perfectly good starters because they lose patience and don't know what to look for between day 4-6.
If you put some pineapple juice in the mix from the beginning to lower the Ph and make it more acidic the bad yeast and LAB will be restricted leaving a more open field for the good ones to take over on day 6. People also tend to make the culture too wet and feed it too much and too often but yours isn't too bad.
Search for Debra Winks Pineapple Juice SD Starter Method on this site. She is our resident microbiologist and SD starter expert here,
No worries.
I shall not repeat rather I'll ask you a question...
If there is no activity then what are you feeding?
Should it all go quiet in the initial stage then there's no hurry to keep feeding. Skip a feed or two. When your starter comes round then carry on feeding.
We discard starter at the beginning because if you don't then you'll be building barrels of the stuff. If there is activity this means the starter has active yeasts in it. We discard some and feed the yeasts fresh flour and water.
But if your starter has gone quiet, which is quite normal at this stage, this means the yeasts are still dormant and are not feeding properly yet! Then when you keep discarding all you're doing is getting rid of any young yeasts in your starter before they've had a chance to become fully active. Everytime you do this its being diluted and eventually you'll just have flour and water.
Feed your starter when it's active and needs more food. If all is quiet then skip a feed or two and just give it a stir every now and again.
Once your starter becomes more active it'll become more predictable and stronger. When it has no trouble and continuously feeds and needs refeeding atleast every 12 hours then it's ready.
Allow your starter to dictate to you at this stage.
Thank you both for the info, and @AbeNW11 I figured that was my problem, that I had been feeding too frequently (IE not letting yeast develop between feedings) and this was what was slowing me down. It's true then that feeding prematurely whittles down the numbers of the good yeasts too much it seems. I let it go for about 24 hours between my most recent feeding and the one previous to it and it is showing promise; it rose about 75% and bubbled and for the first time in a while smelled strongly. Right now (about 12 hours after the most recent feeding), it has risen by about 25-50% and shows lots of little bubbles throughout (visible through the glass jar). I'm going to let it go for another 6-12 hours and hopefully catch it after it's peak activity point and feed it then. Will let you know how it goes.
Went a bit quiet as my computer broke. Just set up the replacement. Its late here so I'll keep it brief...
You've got the idea. Feed when it needs feeding. Once you're starter is predictable and has no problem rising when fed and at least doubles within 12 hours then a starter is born. Keep up what you're doing. When its active follow mini's advice of a good feed and within a few days you should be ready for your first bake.
after yeast have shown up.
So to keep you all updated:
I've been keeping up with the 1:1:1 feeding for the last three days and the starter seems happy. Getting consistent rise, lots of bubbling of increasing size. However, a full rise (looks like its been rising about 80%, not quite doubling in the container I have it in) has been taking upwards of 20 hours it seems. I've been trying to feed it once I notice it falling (usually smells like vinegar around this time), so I've basically been feeding it every 24 hours. In the past I've read that a starter at room temp should be fed no less than twice a day if its at room temp (assuming a 1:1:1 feeding schedule). Am I in the wrong for letting it go 24 hours consistently between feedings even though my culture is 2+ weeks old?
Why not feed it at 12 hourly intervals (only if you see it has peaked and fallen within these 12 hours) and see what happens.
Going 24 hours between feeds at room temperature is not a problem. People feed theirs every few hours and I think it's going overboard. I managed to make a starter feeding once per day maximum.
Have you tried baking with it yet? If you want I can give you a recipe to try.
How about a photo of your starter. Feed it and take a photo then show us when it has peaked and how long it has taken.
Try another feed on the side an note the room temp during the rising, 10g with 35g water and 50g flour or flour 5x the starter. A soft dough. Then let it peak. add more or less water depending on whether you want to trap gas or let it perk out. It should smell and taste neutral after feeding and then yeast taste and aroma will build as it ferments.
Sounds like the yeasts have shown up and if not fed enough now at 75°F room temp, they will go dormant on you and appear dead. You can easily increase the food amount. Temperature changes in the room will affect the fermenting time. Warm faster and cold, slower. Take that into account when determining the food amount.
If a doubling of the dough is desired, feed double food flour or 1:2 with enough water to make a soft paste.
@AbeNW11 the only reasonm I'm avoiding feeding every 12 hours is because it hasn't peaked until probably 18+ hours. I have yet to witness it peak but at the 24 hour mark I've noticed it has fallen about 1 inch, letting me know it's time to feed. Would feeding more frequently encourage stronger yeast action?
and @Mini Oven I've been feeding approx 5:6:5 (50g starter, 60g flour, 50g water) and this has yielded a thick paste which has been showing rise. Would increasing the amount of flour that much mean more activity, or just prolonged rise?
Working on pictures for you guys, I just fed the starter about half an hour ago (before I read the new comments unfortunately) so it'll be 24 before I have the complete cycle of pictures.
Reason why I'm reluctant is because starting too many different starters might be confusing. But here's an idea if you wish.
When your start has risen and peaked take off 10g and do the following....
Feed this 10g with 10g water + 10g flour. Then 12 hours later (doubled or not) feed this 30g with 30g water + 30g flour.
See how it reacts.
All the while maintaining your original as you have been doing.
I'd be interested to see how your starter performs with a bake. Wanna try?
Hi all, sorry for the dropoff in posting. My starter finally had come to life and I was overcome with excitement! @AbeNW11 I tried taking a 10g sample of my starter and going through the process you described and both my original starter and this side sample performed beautifully. Since my last post my starter has been aggressively rising (doubling in around 6-8 hours or less!!) and I'm underway with a bake with it. I baked baguettes a day ago with no commercial yeast, and aside from some major mistakes loading them into the oven, they came out beautifully! I will be baking off more today and will hopefully remember to take pictures and upload them today :) Thank you all for all your help and patience with me being a novice!
Sounds as if it's going really well. Can't wait to see the results.
Now that your starter is well established, and your baking is going well, you'll have to start thinking about maintenance. You don't want to be slave to your starter.
Take a think about how much you wish to bake through the week and how much starter you'll need a come up with a way that works for you and is easy to manage with no discard whatsoever.
For example...
I keep a small amount in the fridge. About 90g - 150g. I bake once a week. Each time i'll take a little off and build preferments. Every 2 -3 weeks the starter in the fridge will run low so i'll take it out, bring it to room temperature, feed it, allow it to sit out for a few hours and then return it to the fridge. Then the whole process will start again. This way I am not slave to the starter having to feed it when not baking. I don't build up anymore then I need so no discarding. Simple! I find whole rye starters keep best with this method.
Just a thought.
but the rubber meets the baguette SD road with how great they taste.compared to yeasted baguettes. I'n guessing these were off the chart taste wise:-)
Well done and
Happy SD Baking
Thank you dabrownman, and yes they were delicious! It's unreal how much of a difference using SD levain makes on the flavor.
Have you thought about why you do this, Abe? You want the pH to drop in order to kill off the spoilage bacteria. In the early stages, every time you discard and add more flour you're raising the pH back up, so you're defeating your purpose.
I'll tell you a secret, Abe. If you mix flour and water, cover and stir every day, in 8 days you will have a wonderful, ripe starter and you have not wasted a drop! This is a secret, though, so don't spread it around.
Yes, since I created my starter some 14 months ago now I do believe that feeding every 12 hours is not necessary. Some swear by it. Some feed it so much they throw away all the yeasts and wonder why it doesn't work. When I created mine I refused to be slave to my starter and fed no more than once every 24 hours. Since then I have come to believe that for the first couple of days there is no need to feed at all. Ones Starter has to get through the leuconostoc stage anyways before any yeasts can take hold. After the leuconostoc stage the mixture turns acidic and kills off these bad bugs making a good environment for the yeasts. Only then do I think feeding is necessary. After all yeasts need food and they have a short lifespan and need to multiply. But even then, since creating my starter, I have come to believe that only feed if there is activity and there's no need to keep up a schedule unless your starter is "hungry". So I have whittled down the feedings by about 80%.
But thanks for the added info. I might try it for want of an experiment. I did this last year but didn't even stir it. This time I'll make a stiffer mixture and just stir it everyday. See what happens.
Take a golf ball size of WW dough at 66% hydration knead it for a minute then put it in a brown paper bag with AP flour that covers the ball. close bag and put it on top of the fridge. In 7-8 days, crack open the hard shell of the dough ball, scoop out the soft insides and feed it with equal amounts of flour and water that way the same as the scooped out middle = finished starter!