The Fresh Loaf

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Need Help with Loaves Coming Out Too Flat, Tartine Recipe

ohthepain's picture
ohthepain

Need Help with Loaves Coming Out Too Flat, Tartine Recipe

Hi all, 

My loaves are coming out too heavy and flat. Any idea what I am doing wrong here?

I am following the Basic Loaf recipe from the Tartine Bread book. I am following their proportions very carefully:

100g leaven, 100% hydration
500g flour - 450g white, 50g whole wheat
375g water
10g salt

3.5 hours bulk fermentation in an 80 degrees F oven, turning every 30 minutes or so
30 minutes bench rest
3.5 hours final rise

Preheat dutch over to 500
Bake 20 minutes in a sealed Dutch oven, oven turned down to 400
Bake 20 minutes with lid off

The loaf on the left came out flat. I think it was overhydrated, but I don't know why. I had to bake it for an extra 10 minutes and it still felt heavy and didn't sound very hollow.

The loaf on the right was much better, but is still too dense. I am very happy with the flavor, but it is much heavier than the bread from Tartine. 

 

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

It's one of two things (but of course not the only reasons). Not enough gluten formation and misjudging the final proofing. Recipe is pretty sound....

 

Flour : 100%

Hydration : 77% (including levain)

Salt : 2%

Levain : 20%

 

You have a quite high hydration for a nearly all white loaf so less forgiving if not enough gluten formation. Only a 20% levain. You could probably do a four hour bulk fermentation developing the gluten for the first 3 hours and leaving it to rest for the final hour.

Incorporate an autolyse to get the gluten formation off to a good start...

1. Autolyse the 500g flour + 375g water for 30min.

2. Sprinkle salt on top, followed by levain and incorporate.

3. Give the dough a good knead for 10 - 15 min. I sometimes even do up to 20min at this stage. Make sure the dough comes together (will take longer the more wetter the dough).

4. Bulk ferment for 4 hours, giving a stretch and fold every 30min for the first 3 hours and then leaving it to rest for the last hour.

5. Shape, bench rest for 15min and shape again. Final proof in the banneton.

6. Recipe is only a guideline. No recipe can give you an exact proofing time. Can put you in the ballpark but that's all. Final proofing can be a bit tricky. Don't wait till doubled (you can easily overproof this way) and it's better to under proof and over proof. I'd say, wait till it's risen by 90% and then bake in pre-heated DO.

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

I echo what AbeNW11 said. It's hard second-guessing what went wrong without being alongside you, but you made no mention of kneading and did mention 'turning every 30 minutes'. Does that mean you flipped the dough over? If so, wet doughs need to be stretched and folded, which is a different process from turning. A simple search on TFL will turn up lots of posts telling you how to do this. By my calculation you 'turned' the dough at least six times. Be careful with stretch and folding that you don't overdo it. Three times (once every hour) is usually enough to firm up the dough. However, for such a wet dough, might it also be worth giving it an initial knead until it starts turning shaggy? You need to get that gluten-formation going.

Finally, three and a half hours is extraordinarily long for a final proof (unless you are cold-retarding or baking in the Arctic). Were you doing the fingertip test? It's the only way to be sure you avoid over- or under-proofing. The tyranny of recipes is that they take no account of the conditions you are working in. So be flexible, keep checking, and bake as soon as the bread is proofed.

Apologies if you're already doing these things but there's no way to tell from the post.

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Hi ohthepain,

As already said, overproofing is a logical candidate.  I think that maybe your bulk ferment was at too high a temperature.  I'm pretty sure that Chad's recipe (I don't have the book in front of me at the moment) calls for a bulk ferment at around 75˚F.  While it may not seem like much, at 80˚F the fermentation proceeds at a higher rate, maybe as much as 50% faster.  This would overferment your dough in a hurry if you kept to the same timetable.  The risk is that the enzymes (proteases) are more likely to break down the gluten structure, resulting in a flatter loaf when baked.  Also, Chad suggests you stretch & fold (he calls them turns but they are basically the same thing) at 30 min increments for the first 2 hrs only.  If you did it more than that you are at risk of overdeveloping the dough, which could also cause a flatter loaf.

With regards to hydration, I believe the original recipe calls for more whole wheat than what you used.  Since WW is more thirsty than white flour your version would essentially have the same effect as making it higher hydration.  You might want to cut back the hydration to 74-75% if you use mostly white flour.

I generally BF for around 4 hrs at 75˚F (watch the dough and not the clock), then shape and proof for an hour or two, then retard in the refrigerator for around 12 hrs.  I find that this dough is difficult to do a poke test on, but you can get the hang of it the more you do it.  Poking is unreliable, though, with cold retarded dough.

-Brad

BobBoule's picture
BobBoule

checked your oven's temperature with a good thermometer? What temp is your bread coming out at?

ohthepain's picture
ohthepain

Thanks all,

It sounds like problem is overproofing. I guess I have been letting it rise longer to make up for the flatness, which does exactly the opposite.

I do have a question about hydration. My dough is not as soft and stretchy. I have to push a fist through it to get it to stretch and fold. So does that mean it's underhydrated?

My next loaf is in the works. I have kneaded the dough. I will drop the oven temperature during bulk fermentation and proofing, and skip my final stretch and fold so that it gets to rest for an hour before final proofing. I will also check my oven temperature.

p

aroma's picture
aroma

...I had a similar problem and tried everything with relatively little success.  Look for a good quality flour with a high protein.  Once I sorted this, I never looked back.

Cheers

ohthepain's picture
ohthepain

Hi all, this loaf came out much better. How can I upload more images?

 

hreik's picture
hreik

then press the green tree icon and you'll see a drop-down menu.  Take it from there.

ohthepain's picture
ohthepain
AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

At exactly the same you posted the photos. 

Wow! what a great improvement. I love the crumb. Crust looks perfect. 

That's a great bake. 

I think we can boil it down to gluten development and perfecting the final proofing. 

Bon Appetite. 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Looking forward! 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

From your description I think you followed the Tartine procedure too literally. Like the others mentioned - everybody's kitchen environment and ambient temperatures are different, and not like the ideal bakery standard of Tartine. 

The fermenting times in a recipe are only a guideline, don't go by the kitchen timer, but by what you see and feel. The loaf is sufficiently proofed when an indentation made with your finger remains visible, but still has elasticity enough to come back a little. 

Happy Baking

Karin