The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Baby Steps and a Cry for Help

thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

Baby Steps and a Cry for Help

I've been lurking on this website for awhile, and decided it was finally time to woman-up and try some of the techniques that I've seen.

I started my sourdough-ing with the Rustic Sourdough from KAF, a cheaters sourdough, if you will (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/rustic-sourdough-bread-recipe).  I have no elitist qualms about cheating with yeast, and I appreciate the training wheels. While we're on the subject of my being a big fat cheater, I must admit I use citric acid to increase the tang, a la (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe). I'm a girl that loves consistency and reliability, and true sourdough can be a fickle mistress. 

What I felt I was missing was the open crumb and structure of the breads I see here, as both of these loaves turn out rather sandwich-y. So I upped my game as follows

  • bought a scale, so I could measure by weight
  • figured out bakers percent and the hydration of my starter
  • adapted my old standby recipe to increase hydration from 62% to 76% (baby steps)
  • used autolyse
  • used stretch and fold
  • got a lame so I could score my dough with confidence
  • and tried to steam the oven

After some mad scientist action, this is the recipe

  • 236 g KAF bread flour
  • 236 g KAF white whole wheat flour
  • 340 g water
  • 230 g 100% hydration sourdough starter
  • 2 tsp yeast
  • 1 tbsp sugar
  • 2.25 tsp salt
  • 0.5 tsp citric acid
  1. Mix the flours and water and let sit for 30 minutes 
  2. Add other ingredients and let sit for 30  minutes, then stretch and fold
  3. Do 2 more rounds of stretch and fold then sit for 30 minutes
  4. Shape into two round loaves and cover, let rest for an hour
  5. Bake at 425 for 25min with steam

I was very happy with the crumb and the balanced flavor, so now I'm looking for more ways to improve.

I mixed this dough with a wooden spoon, but I'll try it with my food processor next time, as I noticed plenty of lumps during the stretch and folds. Ice cubes in the oven were a rather cumbersome steam method, but I'm sure I can find a better one around here. The loaf baked on a stone in the top half of the oven became far browner than the loaf baked on a jelly roll pan in the bottom of the oven, but I'm not sure how to remedy that.  

Does anyone have additional guidance?

Comments

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and let the sourdough raise the loaf slowly.   :)

thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

Would you suggest doing additional stretch and folds during the extended rise time?

Thanks for your help :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that first time is such a rush when you can let go.

Easy to tell, if the dough rises more out than up, time to add some stretches and folds to maintain that upward rising.

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

If you're baking for you only,  start keeping your eyes open for a good Dutch Oven. The Lodge Combo Cooker is very popular on this site.  I use the Lodge 10 in Dutch Oven with great results.  You'll be amazed at the difference that can make.  Steam is important to sd baking. 

 In the US the Lodge is much more affordable than here in Canada.  Shipping cast iron is not a great option :)

And keep on baking - it's a lot of fun!

thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

Thanks for the great idea! When you use the dutch oven, do you spray the crust with water prior to baking?

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Doughy....Yes, you can spray the loaf prior to loading it up.  I also spray the inside of my roaster pan.  A dutch oven works great but can be a bit too confined a space to drop a shaped loaf into.  I adapted the same method, but using a larger turkey roaster instead.  No it does not retain the same amount of heat that a heavy dutch oven does, but when using the roaster in combination with preheated tiles (or baking stone), it has proven to be a very good steaming method for me.  Here is a link to my method if you are interested, along with some sourdough results from using it:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32885/vancouver-sourdough-new-baking-equipment

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/38053/multigrain-levain-multi-photos

All I can say is practice makes perfect.  Start out with some easier formulas for sourdough.  Most of Jeffrey Hamelman's formulas are easy to follow, and if followed exactly, are quite fool proof.  Once you have a hang of those formulas, then move on to trying to add citric acid, etc.  Also, if you ask me, using 100% cultured sourdough is much less finicky than using commercial yeasts.  Commercial yeast will make the dough ferment and rise much faster than cultured yeast, so unless you really know how to read your dough, it could catch you off guard and over ferment or over proof on you.

Good luck and happy baking!

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Also, I would suggest getting your hands in there.  I started out baking not liking the idea of getting my hands all gooped up so I used everything from a bread machine to wooden spoons to do the mixing/kneading for me.  The best thing I ever did was move from that and just mix and knead with my hands.  Yes, there are the extra steps in cleaning your hands, etc., but the more you get to feel the dough, the more you will understand how it is supposed to feel, etc.  If you used your hands, you would never allow it to have lumps.  You would feel them.  A wooden spoon would miss these lumps, as would a food processor.  Sourdough doughs are very easy to mix by hand as they are high in hydration.  Rye breads and other whole grain bread doughs get more sticky and uncomfortable to handle.  Just my 2 cents!...wait, that's 1.72 cents in Canadian.

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Oh and yikes...that's a lot of whole wheat flour in that formula you used.  High for a sourdough loaf anyway.  I am all for high % of whole grain flours in breads, but you should try making smaller baby steps than you are....

Master an easier formula like the Vermont Sourdough by Jeffrey Hamelman, then move on to formulas that use higher whole grain flours.  The more whole wheat flour you use, the quicker the fermentation and proofing.  If you don't know your whole wheat flour well enough, it can easily over proof on you.  Even though I bake 100% whole grain loaves often, I still haven't mastered whole wheat levain loaves.  They are very particular with temperature and time when fermenting and proofing.

You didn't mention the temperature you did the bulk ferment and proofing in.  Also, in your formula, you state you used 230g of 100% hydration sourdough starter.  When you say sourdough starter, do you mean the stuff you feed in a jar, discard, and feed perpetually?

 

thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

That method looks great! I'll have to see how I can get creative and adapt the method to my piecemeal college kitchen.

I was afraid that hand mixing wouldn't be uniform enough, but I did first notice the lumps when I got my hands in there, so you've gotta be right. The hand mixing will be cathartic.

I didn't know that about whole wheat. I have a lot of work to do to gain a better intuition about my doughs. I do appreciate that sourdough gives me plenty of time to check on it and learn from it.  I rely pretty heavily on recipes as opposed to knowledge of the nature of doughs, so I'll definitely check out Hammelman before I try to get creative again. 

I'm not sure about the temp, since I'm in an apartment and I'm not in charge of the thermostat (college life). And yes, I was referring to the stuff in the jar. 

Thanks for all your insight! I have a lot of satisfying research to do.  

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

#1.  GET A THERMOMETER so you can keep track of the temperature in the room you use to bulk ferment/proof the dough.  This is a must.  ESPECIALLY with whole wheat flour.  When a formula states a temperature or dough temp., make sure you stick to it.  Makes a huge difference.

#2.  That's what I was afraid of, you used the sourdough starter from the jar.  I made this mistake in my early baking days.  Sometimes when formulas call for 'sourdough starter,' they expect the reader to understand it means 'levain sourdough' and not the sourdough culture from your jar.  You would rarely use that much sourdough starter from your jar in a final dough formula.  Levain (or sometimes referred to as 'sourdough starter' is a combination of a small amount of mature sourdough culture (the stuff from your jar), and some flour and water.  You let that ferment at a cool room temp for about 12 - 14 hours.  Then you would use that as your sourdough starter in the dough formula.

If this sounds confusing, let me know.  But this would be your 2 biggest issues from what I can see.  Room temp, and starter.  If you get these fundamentals covered, you will see the oven techniques won't really matter as much.  You will still pump out decent loaves even without steam or a dutch oven.

Watching toutorial videos on Youtube are helpful ways to learn and avoid mistakes.

These videos will show you what I was explaining about the difference between sourdough starter culture and sourdough levain is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5rClJg_Osw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5uVrvgShEk

John

thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

Oh wow, I've been using my starter wrong for quite some time then. What is the effect of using levain vs "the jar stuff?"

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

This depends on what flour you use to feed your jar starter culture.  Rye?  WW?  Bread flour?

If you use any other flour than bread flour, that would mean that you are adding way too much whole grain flour into a formula that perhaps doesn't call for that much whole grain flour...this would impact the ferment and proof times, as I mentioned earlier.  Let's say for instance you use whole wheat flour to feed your starter.  This would mean you used 236g whole wheat PLUS another approx. 160g of whole wheat from your starter.  Way too much in my opinion for the type of loaf you are going for...not to mention the bulk ferment times and proof times could be too long at the wrong temps.  For example, for my starter culture in the jar, I feed then leave for 12 hours at 75 - 80 degrees to double.  A levain however, most of the formulas I work off of call for 14 - 16 hours at 65 degrees.  That makes a big difference.

What I would do is work off of a popular sourdough bread formula, and do it exactly how it is written...just to practice on so you can be sure that you aren't doing anything wrong.  Then if your loaves start to turn out nicely, you will know what you used to do wrong and what the right things are.

I can guarantee you that all my flop bakes ever were due to me trying to improvise before I actually perfected a formula.  Whenever I followed a formula exactly, the loaves turned out...EXCEPT when I tried whole wheat loaves for the first few times.  Whole wheat loaves are trickier, as I mentioned before.

What kind of sourdough loaf are you trying to make?  Anything in particular?  One with a bit more WW flour?  Bit more rye flour?  Whole grain flour doesn't matter to you?  My guess is you are after a San Francisco style loaf, since you are adding citric acid to bump up the sour...If I know what kind of loaf you are after, I can give you an easy formula to try.

John

thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

Which flour do you suggest for feedings?

I'm trying to make it traditionally sour and nice and open and lovely like the loaves I see on here, but with enough WW flour that I can enjoy a little nutritional boost.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

I suggest keeping a rye sourdough starter.  It is more stable.  It won't die on you if you miss a few feedings...I kept mine in the fridge without a feeding for 10 months and was able to revive it with no problem.

If you are after a traditionally sour sourdough loaf, there are many good, easy formulas to chose from.  The sour comes naturally with a long, retarded proof in the fridge.  I assume you have read and know what retarding the proof means?  This way you won't have to add additives to get a more sour flavour in your bread.

I would start with Jeffrey Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough formula.

Vermont Sourdough Bread

Levain

  • 75g white bread flour
  • 94g water
  • 15g sourdough starter

Final Build

  • 390g bread flour
  • 50g rye flour
  • 231g water
  • 9.5g salt
  • 169g levain build
  • ¼ tsp instant yeast (omit if retarding the proof in fridge).

Directions

  1. For levain build, add all ingredients in a bowl, mix well and let sit overnight at room temperature. Approx. 65-70 degrees.
  2. For final build, mix together water, flours, levain build and yeast until well combined into a wet shaggy mass.  Let the dough autolyse or sit undisturbed for 30 mins.  After 30 mins, add the salt and knead for 15 – 20 mins until dough is elastic and when windowpane test is performed, should be able to stretch the dough to translucency with minimal tearing.  Medium gluten development.
  3. Bulk ferment by letting the dough rise in a lightly greased bowl, covered, till it doubles in size, at least 2 – 2 ½ hours (150 mins).  Stretch and fold twice at 50 minutes intervals.
  4. Ready a banneton or line a bowl with canvas cloth.  Dust it with flour.
  5. Shape the dough into boule or batard
  6. Put the dough top side down into the prepared banneton or cloth-lined bowl. Cover with a towel and let it rise for 2 – 2 ½ hours, or retard proofing by placing in refrigerator for 16 – 18 hours at 5 degrees.  Retarding the proof will enhance the sour flavour.  If you chose to retard the proof, omit the instant yeast.
  7. Preheat your oven to 475 degrees.  Place dutch oven in oven to preheat.
  8. Remove dough from fridge and let sit room temperature for at least an hour.  Upend the dough onto your baking surface, score, turn the temperature down to 460 and place in oven to bake for 40 minutes.  Uncover at 25 minute mark and let bake for last 15 minutes uncovered.  If unsure about doneness, use a thermometer and remove the dough when its internal temperature is 195 -200 degrees.
thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

I think I can handle that! Is there a particular rye flour that you suggest? 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

I am in Canada, so I use locally supplied flours from local mills.  I have heard good things about King Arthur Flours.  Just their standard rye flour would be fine.  Jeffrey Hamelman is the head baker for KAF so I am sure their rye flour will be good enough for this recipe!

Good luck and let us know how you do.

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Also, I am by no means a mentor for bread baking.  I still ask other members for help all the time.  If anyone doesn't agree with what I have suggested, or has something to add, please add your comments. 

Brokeback Cowboy's picture
Brokeback Cowboy

For a beginner baker I wouldn't have so many ingredients in play. Sourdough is fickle so you want to keep exterior influences to a minimum. Remove the citric acid, yeast and especially sugar. If you have a mixer use it. Stretch and folds are not performed solely in professional bakeries and yes every commercial baker is using one, even Forkish. I believe the problem is technical, but the recipe isn't helping. If you'd allow me to suggest

50% White Bread Flour

50% WW Flour

78% H20

10% Levain

2 % Salt

Autolyse flour and water for 30 minutes.Add remaining ingredients and mix at medium-low speed for 5 minutes. Mix dough on high speed for 1additional minute. Remove loaves from mixer and cover for one hour. Fold dough and rest for a further hour. If necessary (dough is slack) perform another fold. Retard dough overnight and cut loaves the next day. Allow cut dough to rest 20 minutes before shaping.

Brokeback Cowboy's picture
Brokeback Cowboy

Technical skill i.e baking, cooking, etc is pure repetition. Don't be discouraged by your results. It takes years to understand one dough and dozens upon dozens of tries to make an acceptable product. You will get there.

thedoughycoed's picture
thedoughycoed

I think I can tackle that! I'm looking forward to it. How do you suggest baking it?

Brokeback Cowboy's picture
Brokeback Cowboy

With bread you want to cook at a high heat with a lot of steam. Pre-heat your oven to 450F and place a cast iron frying pan at the base of the oven. Once the oven is sufficiently heated, put your loaf in the oven and pour a litre of water in to the frying pan. This will give you adequate steam for a good crust. Turn oven to 425 and cook for 25-30 minutes. At this point you really just have to judge when it's done (I'm really not a fan of baking times lol). Once baked transfer to a cooling rack.