The Fresh Loaf

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Croissant rising problem

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Croissant rising problem

Started baking croissants using Thomas Keller's recipe from Bouchon Bread.  Previously, when searching for good croissants, would occasionally find a bakery that made a good-tasting croissant with a very good thin, crispy crust and many good layers inside but a wad of unrisen, underbaked dough just below the center.

Now this is what my croissants are turning out to be, so I know that the problem is not unusual, but I cannot find this pitfall addressed online or in any baking book that I can access.

I have made four batches, each on a quarter sheet pan.  My oven is calibrated, that is, I know the hotter and cooler areas and it is not that uneven.

Batch 1: I did not follow Kelller's recipe for proofing but (following a pastry chef's advice) proofed them for one hour at 72˚, put them into a cold oven and let them finish proofing as the oven heated up to 350˚ (standard), and baked them for 25 minutes.  Cut one and saw the underbaked center, so turned the oven down to 325˚ and contuned baking, testing one 10 minutes later, then another 5 minutes and again until the crusts were at the beginning of being too browned, then stopped, but all the centers persisted underbaked.

Batch 2: Proofed at ambient 72˚ for two hours (Keller's recipe), looked to be a good size, baked for 25, then 35, then 40 minutes (total) as a cut sample also showed an underbaked center at each time.

Batch 3 and 4: (Batch 1 and 2 were made with year-old KA AP flour, no diastatic malt (DME), and Shamrock unsalted butter). For batches 3 and 4, I used 1/2 KA AP flour and 1/2 Giusto white flour, 3 grams DME, and Land O Lakes for lower moisture content.  Baked at 325˚ convection for 30 minutes, then turned oven down to 300 and continued baking as samples continued to show underbaked centers,

The recipe, in brief, is low mixer for 20 minutes, stretch and fold, rest 1 hour, shape, chill 20 min, fold over butter block, chill 20 min, first fold, chill 20 minutes, second fold, chill, third, roll into a long rectangle, cut into two, chill, cut and roll individual croissants, proof at ambient temp 2 hours, bake at 350 std or 325 convection.  The recipe uses instant yeast for poolish and the batch but I use cake yeast at 2.5 times the instant amount.  I have good bubbling of the poolish after 12-15 hr. and get a good rise and flakey interior on the outer portion of the croissant.

Anyone have experience in overcoming this problem?  My pastry chef friends suggested the quality butter to minimize moisture.  The pastry handles well because it is the same plasticity as the partially chilled - not hard-chilled - butter; slightly sticky, firm but not hard.  It feels the way it ought to.

BB

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

I used to give mine a good 2 hours to rise so that they were really puffy, and if I remember correctly, I baked them at a higher temperature than 350F., possibly 400?  I haven't made them in a long time; my recipe was sort of a combination of Julia Child's and Beth Hensberger's.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

maybe 375-400F?  It sounds as if they need more heat, not less.  

You might want to reference Txfarmer's posts on croissants since she has produced some beauties.  Her notes on process are very meticulous, too.  You can find plenty to read with the Search tool in the upper right-hand corner of the page. 

Paul

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Thank you, PaddyL and PMcCool.

For the record, I tried to use the search function before asking for help, but I had to read through quite a few basic problems that shed no light on my particular situation.  Thank you for pointing me in the direction of Txfarmer.

I am a home barista and blog frequently on coffee web sites.  I find that people with coffee problems blame the roast, or their espresso machine, or their grinder, and very seldom do they consider that the problem is their technique, which it usually is.

I am taking a lesson from this and I expect the problem to be not in the oven or the recipe, but in my technique.

Keller and his co-authors are quite meticulous in their Bouchon Bread recipes, for instance, measuring ingredients down to a tenth of a gram, mentioning water temperature.  I am already guilty of not following the recipe in the ways that I described previously.  I have been pondering while awaiting these replies and switching to instant yeast from cake will bring me into complete compliance with the recipe.  I might try that first.

Secondly, in suspecting my technique, proofing the batch in an aluminum quarter sheet sitting on a corian surface may act as a heat sink, even though the dough is sitting on parchment paper.  I may try to warm up the counter or to allow air to circulate under the sheet during proofing.

If that does not work, I may proof for an extra half hour or even an hour.

I respect how a hot oven can give that 'oven kick' to additionally rise a loaf, especially with good steaming and scoring technique.  But I fail to see how increasing the heat of the oven can penetrate into the core of the croissant without incinerating the already crispy crust.  Nevertheless, as long as my croissants are suffering, it is one of the steps on my learning curve but, as you can see, it is number three.  I trust Keller but my kitchen is not his kitchen(s).

Now I will search Txfarmer....

Thanks again.

BB

yapahichief's picture
yapahichief

I won't even try to pretend that I'm that well skilled with making croissants turn out how I desire them myself, but so you know, some of the recipes I've got and used to make croissants call for significantly higher heat.  For example, one of the recipes I've tried called for 15min at 400F and an additional 15min at 350F.  One thing to think about with laminated dough, is that while you may not see as significant a need for oven spring, but unlike with many traditional yeast loaves, croissants have a lot of fat moisture that you have to cook out.  If you do not get the butter hot enough quickly enough, it will still melt, but at lower temperatures it will melt slower and therefore release its moisture slower.  The obvious result of that is a slow release of moisture into the dough throughout the baking process, potentially keeping the center more moist than desired in the final product.  

Now again, as I started with, I'm no expert, so please don't think I'm trying to say this is the cause or the only cause; I just figured I'd point out heat's potential as a larger contributing factor than you may think (and different quality/brands of butter may also have slightly different melt and smoke points, so you may have to adjust certain conditions from any given recipe).

Also, as far as proofing the croissants and them potentially staying too cool, if you're looking to keep it slightly warmer for them while proofing, maybe look at getting the extra large ziplock storage bags and putting the tray in there with a tall coffee mug that's been microwaved full of water to create a slightly warm steamy environment (use the really tall ones to help prop the bag up off the croissants).  If you're just doing a single sheet at a time, that may be a solution to keep it warmer (and those are sturdy bags, so they can wash and re-use).  Also, I've found that if the counter top is too cold, just putting a kitchen towel or two down between the counter and the pan can work wonders for some of my regular yeast loaves, so may be applicable to croissants too.

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Sorry for the delay.  After two weather cancellations and missed connections, I am now finally in Vienna doing some direct pastry research. :D   I am finding that in some cases I can do better and in some cases I haven't a clue and would need a class.

regarding the croissants:  (background - if I have a seemingly well-vetted recipe from a reliable author, I will first try to follow the recipe, then make suitable changes.  Admittedly, I violated this first principle on several points and I am in the process of backtracking). The problem with recipes from highly classically-trained chefs is that there is a lot of experience they take for granted and assume that the reader will do things "just right".

Thank you, yapahichie, your warm, moist cocoon for rising makes a lot of sense and I hear your admonitions about oven heat.  I still think the failure is more likely to be in my technique than in Keller's recipe.  To that end, my plan is: 1. To Change from cake yeast to the SAF/red star standard instant yeast that the recipie calls for 2. Cleaning up my technique a la Txfarmer and refrain from trappings wads of un-lammellated dough in the periphery of the patans, 3. Proofing the croissants with care, including your suggestions and seeing if a 3 hr. rise, also a la Txfarmer, will help.

If I am going to change oven temperature, then I will change to a whole new recipe that uses a higher temperature rather than to graft that change onto Keller's recipe.

In the end, we all use an amalgam of recipes to make our own breads, but I am not at the customizing stage, yet.

BB

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

The two possible technique improvements that I am taking away from Txfarmer's report is her three hour proofing and the caveat against trapping excess dough within the folds.  I had not even conceptualized this latter pitfall but it makes perfect sense and it was a shortcoming that I persisted in doing for each of the batches.  This may be the key; it was the intangible essential component of experience that I had been searching for in books and on the web, and found it here and now.

Thanks again.

BB

pmccool's picture
pmccool

In that sense they are much like baguettes.  Ingredients are important, yes, but not as important as technique.  That's why I suggested txfarmer's posts.  The lady has an impressive discipline, coupled with an exacting eye for detail.  If anyone could provide you with guidance on the finer points of making croissants, it would have to be her. 

it sounds as though you've already found some nuggets of information. 

Paul

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Yes, and thank you for your direction.

BB

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

minutes turning tray once. Do you have a thermometer in your oven? Mine is accurate to 330 but falls off on the higher temps. I have 2 hanging in mine which I swap out every couple years.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

know where you live but in the winter cold proofing usually takes longer. Better to use the finger test. Cover the pans while proofing after 2 hours when pressed with a finger the impression should remain.

BakerBuck's picture
BakerBuck

Fotomat,

I should use the finger poke test but I hate to.

The oven (Kitchen Aid) was calibrated with four hanging thermometers at a time and surveyed at three level (near top, mid, lower) and at each level the thermometers were swapped across positions to control for inaccuracies in each thermometer.  Then the Viking-suggested Pillsbury dough test was carried out at the main baking level.

BB

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

requires sacrifice...use the finger test and bake at 350°