New on sourdough - Problem with dough
Hi, this is my first post and I hope it´s not a duplicate since I´ve not been able to find similar problem so far.
I tried to develop a two starters, and they seems to be ok. Lot´s of bubbles and when refreshing it takes between 6-8 hours to have the mix doubling in size and with good structure.
Than my problems starts. I tried both starters more than once and the same problem happens.
When trying a very basic white sourdough (20% starter, plain white flour only, 70% water) something very weird happens. I mix the dough, wait for the autolyse, mix in the salt and start either the "stretch and fold" cycle or the more usual kneading process. What happens is that when the dough should be ready for bulk fermenting it seems to be dissolving in my hands, like the gluten was completely destroyed or not developed. The "dough" looks even "grainy".
I tried once to go for bulk fermenting and after it it was impossible to shape since the dough has no structure. In another opportunity I even tried to bake like it is but final result (as expected) was a greyish brick (some bread taste but very weird structure and color).
Sometimes it looks even good during "stretch and fold" but I do not feel the gluten forming as time goes by. Usually the dough increases in size but the structure is rather weak.
My first culprit was the flour (maybe rotten dur to high temperatures in Rio de Janeiro) but I used the same flours with yeasted dough successfully.
What else? I even thought about the water but again, I use the same water for other doughs pretty successfully.
Maybe I am developing the wrong bacteria? But twice, in different moments, one starter based in white flour + rye + water only and the other using some grapes to develop the starter?
I am becoming quite anxious to bake my first sourdough! I've baking bread for less than an year now but had been rather successful with yeasted breads.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Cheers from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil!
Cassius.
Instagram: @cmcf71
Twitter: @cmcf71
First, welcome to the Fresh Loaf on behalf of Floyd Mann, our host.
What is the history of your starter? How did you start them and how old are they? What is the recipe for your dough? Does your dough contain milk?
Ford
Hi Cassius,
Welcome to TFL. Some pictures would help us diagnose the problem. Post a picture of your starter at its most activated state, and another of the dough when it looks grainy.
You mentioned that you had success with yeasted breads. A picture of your yeasted bread success might be helpful, really to rule out your flour as a possibility.
I'm taking a WAG at this, but maybe a combo of flour & your starter? There's a slim chance that your starter is breaking down the gluten in your dough too quickly, because fermentation is taking too long and/or because there's not enough gluten in your flour in the first place (hence my request for a picture of your yeasted bread).
If your flour has low protein, at 70% hydration it might behave very wet and be impossible to hold shape. I had some of this problem when playing around with some Argentinian flour, which generally is low protein.
First of all, thank you Ford, for the warm welcome! Let´s start from the beginning.
Both starters are rather new, and I started both myself. I must confess I do not remember now from where I got the recipes, but one has 9 months old and was developed from white flour, water and rye flour. The second one is 6 months old and started from white flour, water and green grapes. I developed both for a couple of weeks and, as stated in almost all starter instructions, when they reached a stable behaviour I put both in the refrigerator and from that time on I refresh both weekly.
The recipe is the same everytime, 100% flour, 70% water, 20% starter and 2% salt. In almost all tests I included an autolyse period, adding the salt after it.
Cranbo, I´ve been thinking about flour also, as I mentioned. Unfortunately the offer of flour in Brazil is pretty bad. Most, if not all flour I can find in the supermarket do have around 10% protein so they can be considered all purpose or even less than this. I can also buy Caputo "00" (I use this one mainly for pizzas) and Granarolo "0" (as far as I remember this one has a good % of protein). Recently I was able also to grab some 5 Stagione "00" Manitoba, that is pretty high on proteins.
I've been using 5 Stagione to improve my standard flour in a 25/75 blend (Manitoba/All Purpose). I tried twice to do the sourdough with Granarolo and recently with my flour blend.
Probably due to low protein my yeasted breads never had that great big holes I see in Instagram pictures, but I've been managing to get a nice structure and with great taste.
I never took pictures from the crumb but I do have a few pictures from the outside, does this helps?
Based on cranbo comment, what you think of the following experiment: I will use only Manitoba flour (for sure high on protein) with my starter next time (I only bake in weekends and this next weekend is Carnival in Brazil so probably this will happen only in a couple of weekends). Also I will take pictures of the whole process so I can post here to help.
Considering an average of 10% protein of brazilian flours, do you think it´s a good idea to continue with my blend or should always use Manitoba from now on? in case of the blend, do you suggest which proportions of Manitoba/All Purpose? For the records, I never used Manitoba only in yeasted breads because I´ve been reading it may be too strong.
Sorry for the newbie's questions and maybe I am doing something wrong but I really like to make bread and it has been a great hobby! I really hope you can continue to help to achieve my sourdough goal.
Thanks!
Cassius
First of all welcome. You have found a great website.
Here are a few things to think about:
1. You mentioned your recipe is: 100% flour, 70% water, 20% starter and 2% salt
Don't forget to include the 100% hydration starter when calculating your final hydration of your dough.
So for arguments sake: 500g flour + 350g water + 100g starter (50g flour + 50g water) + salt
This will be a 72.7% hydration dough.
2. You are using a low gluten flour. I suggest trying a Canadian flour if you can get hold of some. You want 14% + protein. I'd suggest if you want to do a mix then make the weaker flour the 25%
3. You haven't told us your method. Might you be over doing the fermentation time effectively turning your dough into starter? Eventually the yeasts will attack the gluten if left too long. How about telling us your recipe + method.
4. Sometimes you need to use the recipe as a guideline. For a long time I couldn't understand it. Was using strong flour, doing the recommended stretch and folds, kept to the timing etc and still oven spring evaded me. The dough was not formed very well. Eventually I decided to add some good old fashioned hand kneading when forming the dough until there was good gluten formation. Then I finished off with the stretch and folds at recommended intervals. Problem solved. Good strong dough and loads of oven spring. There are so many variables to baking and just because a recipe says one thing doesn't mean to say its "ideal" for you! Perhaps the flours used were different....
Hello Cassius,
My guess is that your gluten is not being developed or is being destroyed. Your starters certainly should be well developed by now. You are not using unscaled milk so the glutathione is not present and I know of no protease that might be present and be destroying the gluten. Perhaps the proofing temperature may be too high. The wild yeast in sourdough is more sensitive to the higher temperatures and a prolonged fermentation in the acid conditions of the sourdough may hydrolyse the gluten. The wild yeast is most active at about 27°C (80°F) at higher temperatures the activity slows down and at about 38°C (100°F) the yeast dies. If your proofing is prolonged, then the gluten may be destroyed by the acidic conditions of the sourdough.
Try proofing at a lower temperature. Perhaps adding some "vital wheat gluten" may also help. Eliminate the autolyse period for one trial. (Here is a chance for gluten destruction at the high temperature.)
For more guidance on sourdough try this site: http://www.sourdoughhome.com.
I hope this helps.
Ford
Hi, many thanks for all insights, I think I will have something to have fun with in the upcoming baking sessions. Some comments on your suggestions:
AbeNW11:
1) Absolutely true, thanks for the correction. I am using a 100% Hydration starter and will be more accurate from now on.
2) Good point, next time I will try first with Manitoba flour only, followed by 75%-25% blend as suggested. I will document the whole process as much as possible and will let you know the results.
3) Recipe is the one you corrected above. Regarding the method, I start creating the "production starter" from my refrigerated starter. In order to do this I start a couple of days before mixing the dough, I do a couple of refreshments each day, keeping a close look on how the starter reacts due to our high temperature in general, even worse at this time of the year. I refresh it when it doubles in size and I can see a clear web structure in the starter (this usually happens between 4-6 hours.
4) Agree with your points. I am rather new and did not develop well this "sense of dough" but I always try to use the recipe as a guideline. Considering our high average temperature it´s mandatory to do this otherwise the dough will be pretty bad. But I will try a mix of hand kneading and strech & folds next time.
Ford:
- Temperature is always and issue. We reach 40C easily in Rio at this time of the year and I avoid doing bread when it´s too hot (also because it´s impossible to keep and oven turned on without being slowly cooked OUTSIDE it at this temperature). My last test was done with an average of 27-28C but I think that even this is a bit too hot and risky.
- I will try to bring the dough into and air conditioned space of the apartment next time, maybe this helps.
- I will eliminate the autolyse next time.
- Many thanks for the link. I will check it!
Thanks for the valuable help!
Cassius
1. Do you autolyse with the levain?
2. How long do you autolyse for?
3. How long is the Bulk Fermentation?
You are most welcome, Cassius. If we can be of assistance, do not hesitate to let us know, either on the forum, or by private mail.
Ford