The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

texture tips needed

uziel's picture
uziel

texture tips needed

Hello to all ..... I have attached the pic of my not so bread like bread, its whole wheat. As usual its dense but I am unable to see any holes or air pockets due to yeast activity though the dough rises a bit more than double. I do single rise only as I tried double rise but dint see much difference. When I transfer it to oven, the middle sags a little bit though I try to be very soft while transferring. Its coming out sift due to use of milk, honey and extra moisture ( I tried roux method here) 300gm flour, 3 gm yeast, 30 gm sugar, 30gm oil, 80% fat free milk and a bit of milk powder. I dint use salt. Kept kneading for 10 minutes till all came together. Used bread pan 8x4 inch, preheated at 200C for 5 min, steamed with hot pan, baked for 20 min flat at 200C and then last 2 min grilled from top for brown layer, cooled in rack. I read this forum posts and other books regularly but cant catch if I am going wrong.

(a) Why almost 0% air pockets?

(b) Does this bread looks undercooked?

(c) If I make in smaller quantities to test like 50gm flour, I can see air pockets and it looks cooked. For testing I use full white flour, still results almost the same no fluffiness.

(d) If I at start bake at 220C for 5 min and then continue at 180 for next 15-20 min will initial extra heat seal the air pockets before it starts to sag.

(e) For the above quantity is 20 min at 200C ok? What if I bake it at 180C for 40 min, will the bread turn very hard?  I tried myself but top is hard crust middle is ok but still no air pockets.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

From what you wrote, it appears you knead the dough then immediately bake it without allowing any time for the loaf to rise. Is this what you actually do or do you proof it, and if so, for how long? Also, 1% yeast might be on the low side for a recipe that doesn't include a long bulk and/or proof. 

Ford's picture
Ford

I think the bulk fermentation is important to develop gluten and flavor.  However, There are several "right" ways to make bread, and you must choose the one that works for you.  Since you are not happy with the present results, I'll give you a procedure that works for me.

If I am making a whole grain loaf, I do a presoak of the whole grain flour and liquid to soften the bran.  After about an hour or more of the soak, I mix the ingredients, flour, yeast, salt, fat (butter), I work this with spoon, sturdy flat whisk, or electric mixer (w dough hook).  When the dough comes together, I turn it out on slightly floured surface and hand knead until the dough is smooth and springy.  I then place this dough into a lightly greased bowl and allow it to rise (covered with plastic wrap) until it has doubled in bulk.  Then I divide the dough, about 35oz. pieces for the size pan that you are using.  I shape the dough by stretching the surface to orient the surface molecules and give strength to the skin.  I place the shaped loaf into a well buttered baking pan, such as you have described, brush with melted butter, and cover with plastic wrap.  When the dough has risen well above the rim of the pan (about 1.5 inch) I slash the loaf lengthwise (about 1/2 inch deep) spray it with a mist of water.  I place the pans on the preheated stone in the preheated oven (450°F or 232 °C) with a pan of boiling water on the shelf below.  The loaves are misted about three times in the first ten minutes.  After fifteen minutes, I remove the pan of boiling water and reduce the temperature to 350°F or 177°C.  The loaves bake under these conditions until the internal temperature is 195 to 200°F (91 to 93°C), about an additional 40 minutes.  I remove the loaves, place them on a cooling rack, brush them with melted butter and cover them with a plastic wrap.  After cooling overnight, I can slice them, or package and freeze them.  Of course, if you want a crisp crust, you do not brush the loaves with butter, nor do you cover them with plastic wrap.

I hope this helps you.  Happy baking!

Ford

 

 

 

 

uziel's picture
uziel

Thanku Ford for sharing valuable tips. I will try to incorporate some of them. I dont have a thermometer to measure internal temperature but will try to get one.

Ford's picture
Ford

There are many manufacturers of the instant read thermometer with prices ranging from less than $10 to more than $100. The cheaper ones do work.  Determining doneness by internal temperature is by far the best way.

Ford

Ford's picture
Ford

There are many manufacturers of the instant read thermometer with prices ranging from less than $10 to more than $100. The cheaper ones do work.  Determining doneness by internal temperature is by far the best way.

Ford

 

uziel's picture
uziel

I do proof for 2 hours at 32 degree c. It rises to more than double.

Ford's picture
Ford

Do you knead, bulk ferment, shape, check the internal temperature for doneness?  These are important for me.

Ford

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

1.6% to 2% will help your crumb hold itself together and give taller loaves.  For 300g flour  4.8g to 6g salt.

I think we can help you more if we know exactly what kind of whole wheat flour you are using.  Does it have a name or bag information?

 

uziel's picture
uziel

the flour that I use is not branded. Its the regular whole wheat flour that I use for flat bread. Sometime I do buy  this http://www.aashirvaad.com/Aashirvaad-Select-Atta.aspx

clazar123's picture
clazar123

It almost looks like a cake texture. I  also need to ask about the flour. Is this flour made from a soft whole wheat such as a cake flour or a biscuit flour? Do you mill the wheat yourself? Have others used this flour and successfully made a loaf of bread?

When you make the dough, what is the texture of the dough? After 10 minutes of kneading, does it stretch like taffy before it breaks off or is it more like a clump of clay or cookie dough that easily pulls a chunk off without stretching like taffy? A picture of that would be helpful, also.

Whole wheat flour can make a great loaf of bread but it usually needs a stage where the flour is allowed to sit and  allow the bran bits to have time to fully absorb the water. It can be done by many different methods-an autolyse, retard, preferment, sponge or just to sit for a minimum of 30 minutes after the initial mix.. If you don't build this into the technique when making WW bread, then your baked loaf of bread will be very crumbly within the first 24 hours as those bran bits are now absorbing all the moisture from the crumb and making it brittle and crumbly.

Keep working on it!

 

uziel's picture
uziel

Thanx for yr reply, sir you said to rest the dough after initial mixing, does that mean when it is still in crumbly stage or it has form a full dough, I mean if its the second case, is it not equivalent to proofing. Also the flour that I use is not branded. Its the regular whole wheat flour that I use for flat bread. Sometime I do buy  this http://www.aashirvaad.com/Aashirvaad-Select-Atta.aspx

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

however not much of it is gluten.  That would explain why it comes out crumbly when wet and more like heavy cake than bread.  Adding proteins like milk or milk powder can help, so can using egg whites as part of the water, boiled and mashed beans might also help the texture.  A good soaking of the flour to soften bran has already been mentioned and a good idea.

I would suggest you try first, a Tangzhong method of adding pre-gelled starch to the recipe to see if that helps.  Take only 5% of the dough flour and hydrate with 5 x the water (also from the recipe.)   Heat just up to thickening  and let it cool back down before adding to the dough recipe.  Add back any water that might have evaporated during the cooking.  

Example:  500g flour in dough recipe.  5% is  25g flour  + 125g of water    weigh after cooking, add water to bring up the weight to 150g     Add to the liquids and knead into the flour.  You should see some immediate results right away in dough handling,  then give the dough a good soak and knead.  Try raising the moisture content of the bread.

 

vishnu's picture
vishnu

We recently tried a new chakki atta for making flat breads. The bread was smooth and healthy. We recommend others to try this particular chakki atta as well.