Some basic level questions
Hi everyone! I am a basic lever bread baker for about a year now. I have been using Emmaneul Hadrijandreu's book "How to make a bread" for all of my bread baking experience. Even though I have been baking bread for rather a long time now, I consider myself to be at very basic level as all of my knowledge is linked to that book.
I do, however, not make starter the way he does, but use the method I've found on TFL.
I have come to understanding that, if I want to improve my knowledge, I should expand my resources since I have been using only that book for quite a long time. I, however, live in a small European country and my resources are rather limited.
So I have decided to ask couple of questions here hoping someone would answer them :)
Now - first question:
Often - especially if I don't slash my bread (which I usally do, but somethimes Emmanuel's recipes don't require slashing) my bread cracks on the sides (this happens regardless of wheather I use yeast or sourdough starter). Is this normal or I have been doing something wrong?
Also, somethimes, when I make slash, it kind of closes back again and my bread cracks on the sides as well. Why does in it always opens on the line of the slash making a great crust?
Thank you
I see my last sentence is not very understandable. Sorry. It was supposed to go like this:
Why doesn't it always open on the sides of the slash making a great crust?
I see my last sentence is not very understandable. Sorry. It was supposed to go like this:
Why doesn't it always open on the sides of the slash making a great crust?
There are two, actually three, possibilities.
1, your dough is not fully proofed before going into the oven. This leads to too much oven spring and the loaves split open.
2, the loaves are not shaped properly and so they are weak in the sides and split open in the oven.
3, both conditions in 1 and 2 are present.
Jeff
Hi,
I always follow instructions and wait until the dough rises double in its size. So I assume the proofing period is correct.
However, the problem can be in the fact I do shape the dough properly. How can I tell if this is the case?
Thank you!
Hi,
I always follow instructions and wait until the dough rises double in its size. So I assume the proofing period is correct.
However, the problem can be in the fact I do shape the dough properly. How can I tell if this is the case?
Thank you!
Watching for the dough to double is a good general, but somewhat vague, indicator of fully proofed dough. You will want to read about how to tell when dough is fully proofed by using the finger poke method. I suspect that this might be your primary problem.
Jeff
Corrections for Emmanuel Hadjiandreou's "How to make Bread"
Hi,
Thanks so much for the list. I have checked it and it appears that Croatian translation of Emmanuel's book has already corrected these mistakes!
I also find with very wet doughs that slashes will stick shut again before the loaf had fully expanded, which is annoying. It seems more likely if the slash is angled - vertical slashes don't do this, but they don't produce ears and gorgeous crispy bits, either.
One of life's annoyances.
And yes, splitting on the sides is normal if you have no slashes, or the slashes haven't opened properly. As someone said, more steam might help as it lets the crust expand further before splitting.
Yes, it usually only happens if slash doesn't open.
When it does open, I get a bread like this: http://1drv.ms/1CYcXfH and this is how it looks when I cut it: http://1drv.ms/1CYcKZZ (this is Emmanuel's basic, white bread with yeast. I was confused as he doesn't slash his and it still doesn't creak on sides (at least it can not be seen on the photos). I thought I was doing something wrong.
This is a photo of whole grain wheat bread with three types of seeds: http://1drv.ms/1CYdkXxAs you can see, it did splittin on the upper side a bit. His version, again had no slashes or splittings.
Thank you :)
but only while I had problems with developing the gluten.
I found that once I had solved the gluten problem the dough had more structure and the scoring didn't shut back again.
Scoring should be done at a 45 degree angle, not too deep and don't be hesitant.
If you want refrigerate half an hour before baking to help.
Hi,
Thanks for the tip. I do follow all of Emmanuel's protocol: when I make the dough I stretch it 10 times in very short period and then let it rest covered for 10 min. I do this 4 times. Then I let it rest for and hour or until it doubles. Then I shape it and leave it for another 30-40 min or until it doubles.
Could it be that I leave it for too long?
I also very often have problems while scoring (slashing) the bread - I use my ordinary kitchen knife and the dough kind of sticks to the knife which makes it impossible for me to make a nice, clear slash.
Any tips?
Thank you!
I used to follow recipes exactly but that doesn't mean the gluten is developed. One has to be their own judge as well. Same goes for proofing. They give an exact number of stretch and folds and times but there are so many factors that it's impossible to get it exactly right by following the recipe down to the letter. Here are a few tips:
1. When forming the dough before the first rest you can either knead it till it comes together nicely and stops sticking to table and hands.
Or give it a few minutes in a kneading machine till it comes away from the sides.
Or, don't be afraid to give a few more stretch and folds if the gluten hasn't developed.
2. For bulk fermentation you can leave it for however long asked for. When it comes to final proofing then you've got to be judge.
3. Hold the knife at a 45 degree angle, don't go too deep (should be about 1/4 to 1/2 inch) and don't do a cutting back and forth motion. If you hesitate or go too slowly it will drag and pull away at the dough. Do it very quickly with no hesitation. There are good youtube videos about scoring.
If you go too deep it will collapse under it's own weight and close. Quick shallow slashes at an angle.
I have just read some other topic with problem's using Emmanuel's book and I have come to understand that your 1st tip might be crucial: he only says mix the wet and dry ingredients until they form the dough (or something like that-I am not at home, so it's hard to check, and besides it's in another language so I might be translating it incorrectly) and I would just quickly form the dough and let it rest. I think that was a big mistake. Since everything else is done rather quickly in his method, I thought that was kind of essential to do :D How silly of me!
I can't wait to try making bread with more kneading before the first rest!
I must also share my concern regarding his shaping explanations: from the text of his book, and being so inexperienced, I didn't think it was a big deal and I tried doing it as fast as I could. But then I saw a youtube video where he teaches at school and realized how wrong I was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLGxN--I5Hg
Also, my dough is never so clean and full. It stretches and kind of torns while I shape it. Why does this happen?
I think these stuff should have been explained in the book much better.
Still, I must admit I was (and still am) a huge fan of his book since it introduced me to this wonderful world of bread baking :)
But some things aren't explained much. Not much is said about shaping.
I will definitely check that youtube video out when I get home.
Bread has to be done by the feel as well as following a recipe I have found. I think the tearing is under developing the gluten too.
He does rely on stretch and folds only for the gluten development but try as I might it doesn't work for me. No harm in giving it a head start with some good old fashioned kneading.
At first the dough will be very sticky. If any drops off and sticks to the table just scoop it up and carry on. Soon it'll come together.
Best of luck and keep us informed.
Willbe back here with the results and probably with more questions :)
My weekend has been full of baking!
I've made a plain white bread (I must shammingly admit to be my favorite) and I have tried to follow your directions thoroughly. I did hand kneed the dough around 10 min before the stretch/fold & wait cycles. I immediately saw the difference in the dough, it was so much better!
However, when I came to the scoring part, I failed again. I could not run the knife through the dough at one motion so I had to go back-and forward. The dough sicked to the knife. Here is a picture: http://1drv.ms/15F2DOt
After that I made a sourdough bread with white, whole & rye flour. The results were much better and I felt pleased:
http://1drv.ms/1CbvDvB
Flat like this I__I------------
Or did you use the tip like this V--------------
Holding the knife up so the tip does the scoring and not flat like using a bread knife.
I held it like a bread knife. I thought that was what 45° angle meant?
using the tip of the blade (like the tip of a pen knife the ones you push up) then at a slight angle to the right (if right handed) or left (if left handed).
If you hold it straight down and flat it'll drag.
Wet the knife to make it easier then with the tip and at a slight angle make shallow slashes quickly!
Did you manage to watch any videos on youtube?
But I do like your sourdough very much. Nice!
All of the youtube videos I saw used a razor blade for scoring, not knife. Any recommendations?
Maybe it's worthy to notice I don't usually have problems with scoring sourdough bread, only the ones with commercial yeast!
Many have said they have success with a tomato knife (try looking them up on google and see if you have anything similar)
But any sharp knife will do. Easier to control when using a lame though.
Wetting it helps so it will glide through. With sourdough putting it in the fridge a half hour before baking helps with scoring. But you don't have problems with sourdough and yeasted breads don't give you much leeway with time to do this but you can experiment.
I have just learned that Ken Forkish has a great idea (which i'm going to try next).
This is to shape the dough as normal. Then final proof seam side "down". So when you tip the dough out the seam is on top. Then no need to score as seams will be the scoring.