Tartine Sourdough - some problems
Hi!
I've been following Chad Robertson's Tartine recipe for my sourdough, but I've been having some problems.
Here's my current set-up:
Recipe
900g Strong White Flour
100g Rye Flour
750g Water
20g Salt
Process:
Basically the same as in the Tartine book: Leaven made overnight with a mature starter that rises and falls regularly with feeding, 45 minute autolyze, 4 hour bulk rise with 6 turns (4 in the first two hours). My oven only goes to 440F so it stays at that temp for each boule which takes 1hr approx.
Problem:
I’ve not been able to get very much oven spring, and so I’ve found that my loaves look awfully flat and short as opposed to having height in a dome-shape. The crumb however is fairly open and gelatinised. Scoring the loaves has been hard since the dough tend to sticks to my lame causing drag, and hence has not developed ‘ears’ and opened up in quite the same way as yours. Shaping is hard as well because of the stickiness.
Any advice? Drop to a lower hydration level, turn more in the bulk rise stage? I've been told that lack of gluten development can mean the dough is too sticky, and be responsible for poor rise in the oven. Thanks for your help!
How long is the final proof, and at what temp? I haven't read any of the Tartine books (quel horreur) so I can't fill in the blanks as regards the basic process you are following. Is the oven actually getting to and staying at 440? I.e. have you verified the temperature? If I had an oven that didn't get any hotter than that I think I would try using the broiler setting to get some more heat in there for the first ten minutes of the bake at least. Are you using steam? Can you post some pics?
Hi jeano, thanks for your reply.
After the `bulk-rise' period of 4 hours, the dough is pre-shaped and left to rest for a further 45 minutes, then it is shaped and placed in a round banneton and left to proof for 6-7 hours in a warm room.
I've not actually verified the oven temperature with an separate thermometer unfortunately, but perhaps heat is the issue. I'm just trusting the setting on the oven.
For steam, I put a tray of water in the bottom of the oven, and the loaf is baked in a dutch oven to keep the water in. No pictures i'm afraid, but I'm trying again and I'll post again when I have photos.
is no need for a pan of water at all. Check your oven temperature to make sure it is hitting the set temperature -mine is off 25 F low.
I'm with Jeano - I suspect that you are really over proofing a great deal. In my winter AZ kitchen using your times I would have puddle of goo like Jeano does. Dump the clock and watch the dough instead. Final proof will be between 1 and 2 hours only and the loaf should go into oven when it has risen no more than 90% more than it started out.
Knowing when the loaf has fermented and proofed properly is the hardest thing to learn abut baking bread if you ask me. It isn't difficult but does take experience. I didn't get it until I posted a before and after proof in a basket pictures and Mini Oven took one look at it and said way over proofed. You might post some pixs of pre and post ferment and proof and we can tell you where you are going wrong.
Happy baking
Hi thanks for your response!
Perhaps overpricing is the problem, I'll get posting photos on my next bake!
Again, not familiar with Terrine, but in my kitchen any day of the year those long proofing times would leave me with puddles, not loaves. Sometimes I have to hurry up and get the oven hot to avoid overproofing in REFRIGERATED loaves. if you leave sourdough too long the gluten degrades and loaves cannot spring.
Are you proofing by elapsed time or using the fingerpoke test to determine readiness to bake?
Hi Jeano,
I've been going by when the dough seems to have increase volume by 30%. What should i see when I poke it to know when its ready?
Flour a finger, poke a good half inch in, remove finger, see if dent immediately fills in (not ready), doesn't fill at all(overproofed) or is just right with slow, incomplete refill. I'd be checking as early as an hour after shaping, certainly no later than an hour in a warm room. Once you get the hang of it, you'll have a good idea of how much lead time to get that oven preheated.
Never, ever, assume that the dial or display on your oven reflects the interior temperature of the oven.
If you are baking in a (presumably preheated) Dutch oven, you don't actually need an additional steam source in the oven. The bread produces its on steam and the lid holds it in.
I gave up with sourdough. Too much work to maintain the culture and be honest I like bread made with fresh yeast and long fermented. another problem is they my wife is sensitive to the bread made with nutural starter. I killed my gimaldiny soudough starter recently.
Mo think your problem might be aLao your oven tem. You need 480-500f or try baking them in dutch oven.
Sounds like over-proofing to me as well. It took me a long time to figure out the timing. Timing is too variable based on temp, activity of your starter etc to consider the times in the book as particularly helpful.
In Tartine 3, he switches to a shorter wait on the levain. Instead of overnight, mix the levain in the morning. My kitchen now is at 70 degrees and I think its about 4 hours till its ready (if a small chunck of the levain floats in room temp water, it is good - wait longer if it sinks. If you have a stand mixer, you could give it a few minutes mix before starting the turns during the ferment (Robertson mentions using a mixer on an online video). You should be able to feel it coming together with the turns. At some point it becomes uniform and acts as a single mass.
After a few hours with turns, I'd recommend putting it in the refrigerator - can stay overnight. Then shape the cold dough - a lot easier with the high hydration.
From there use the poke test as described above. From cold it will be at least 3 hours unless your kitchen is very warm.
With the the high hydration, it will always be a challenge to handle. Others here recommend using a parchment sling to get it into the dutch oven.
Once you get the hang of it, the recipe works great and you'll be ready to start adding things like sprouted grains and porridge.
Hi prettedda
Thanks for your reply, that all looks like great advice. I think I need to rethink the schedule of my bakes, given that I need to reduce the levain time, and leave it over night between the bulk rise and final proof!
I'll report back with results and photos!
I have a question: you suggested that after the turns, I refrigerate overnight. Won't that risk over-proofing the dough?
Sounds like overproofing
the tartine style advices a 3-4 hour bulk rise performing stretch and folds to develope the gluten. If you are at 4 hours it may be a bit much. Further, after shaping a cold (refrigerated) retard for 8-12 hours OR a much shorter warm rest of only 2-3 hours is recommended. If you are warm resting for an additional 6 hours at a warm temp then I would guess that your dough is overfermenting and collapsing during this time, with a loss of gluten and reduced oven spring. Hope this helps and good luck.