Comparing kneading techniques
This may have been discussed before but I'm curious what people think.
Comparing 2 somewhat different approaches:
E. Hadjiandreou in "How to make Bread" writes:
"I believe in a very basic method of kneading... The dough is effectively folded inside the mixing bowl 10 times and for about 10 seconds. No lengthy pummelliing or pounding, or indeed elbow grease, is needed!" and "We do this 10-second kneading process 4 times in total, with 10 minutes of rest between each stage."
And throughout most of his book he seems to follow this basic method which sounds pretty straightforward and easy (same with his illustrations).
Ken Forkish in his book "Flower, water, salt, yeast" describes his process that uses the "pincer method" for mixing by hand followed most of the time by three stretch and folds over the next 2 hours. It seems reasonably easy as well if you follow the pictures or some of his on-line tutorials but a bit more involved than the first method.
Has anyone tried the 2 methods side-by-side and compared them?
Or am I comparing apples to oranges since both authors are using somewhat different approaches with respect to flour mixes, autolysis, hydration, etc.?
Just curious
Bröterich
I find a method that works for me and that is it. The idea is to get the gluten formed by mixing and then stretching the dough to get the long molecules oriented so that they have the strength to hold the loaf together, to contain the carbon dioxide gas for rising, and to strengthen the skin of the loaf so that the loaf maintains its shape. Whatever method works for you is the one to use. There are many methods that accomplish the same thing.
Ford
depends on the hydration. Bagels require kneading the old fashioned way since the hydration is 52-54% and nothing else works as well for them unless you want to burn up your KA so you can get a decent mixer to replace it.. You need somewhere around 72% hydration for slap and folds to work for white breads and 78% for no knead. Folding works best for breads between 65% and 78% hydration. For me, folding in the bowl is just a variation of stretch and folds. For enriched dough like panettone, it is best to use a dough hook with the mixer until it is hooked to death. Sometime i use a combination of 3 of them for really wet dough breads. It is best to know them all and when they are best for the dough. Like Ford says they all work but they do have their places where they work better . I'm not convinced thst one works best in all situations.
Hi Bröterich,
I am not familiar with the Hadjiandreou method, but if it is folding only, it may be similar to Robertson's Tartine method. It depends on how he incorporates the ingredients.
The method that Forkish uses is slightly different than that of Robertson. Forkish autolyses the flour and water only, which is the traditional method, and then he adds the levain and other ingredients. The pincer and fold part is his way of distributing the added ingredients uniformly through the dough. After the initial mix, he calls only for folding the dough in the bowl, no pincer.
Robertson, on the other hand, "autolyses" his dough with the levain, so folding is sufficient to incorporate and distribute the added ingredients. (I put autolyse in quotes here because it is not traditional to add the levain for this step, but since he keeps the time short (~40 min.) it doesn't seem to matter much, at least in my experience.) After the initial mix, again, folding in the bowl only.
Both methods make fine breads, although due to the long fermentation times, Forkish's formulas are a bit more finicky and sensitive, especially to temperature of the bulk ferment.
-Brad
II'm with DA here. The kneading method will vary depending on hydration level. Up to about 60% hydration I use Emmanuel's "10 second knead" process for just about all my breads. It's simple, convenient and there's no mess because teh dough stays in the bowl. It's especially good for people with arthritis as there is no hard kneading involved, just pinching of a little dough between your fingers. With higher hydrations this method becomes unworkable and that's when I use stretch and folds over a timed period.
as the others say, it really depends on the specific type of bread you are making.
For the (60% hydration) breads that I sell, I use alternatively Reinhart's pre-dough method from "Whole Grain Breads", or his S&F technique from ABED (depending on my schedule). And for Lepard's Alehouse Rolls (70% hydration) his 30 second kneading. All methods work just fine.
For higher hydration breads I use either Forkish's pincer method or Robertsons folding technique (though I pinch Tartine porridge doughs, too, to better incorporate the porridge and add-ins). Both work great.
Karin
I've been doing a lot of the stretch and fold method this year, and I like it since it doesn't require me to break out the mixer. The described techniques are both pretty much the same thing. I'll manipulate my dough 3-4 times anywhere from 10 to 40 minute intervals, depending mostly on what I'm doing at the time. If I'm in a hurry I'll use warm water to speed the rise and handle the dough every 10 minutes, if I'm baking on the side I'll use cold water and only handle it every 30-40 minutes. The longer times allow for better flavor development, other than that its just a matter of letting the dough tell you how much handling it needs to make a good loaf. With practice you just feel how much manipulating the dough can take at each stage, and when it's all together and ready to hit the oven.
Currently, I don't really knead by hand. Before, I used the slap and fold method, as I pretty much stick to baking bread with higher hydration (70% or so). In lower hydration, it is easier to use the traditional method. But in the end, I don't find using a stand mixer any different from kneading by hand, except all the elbow grease. I usually finish by hand, however, just to make sure I don't break the dough. Actually sometimes when the dough is too wet, I found slap and fold works really well.