The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Dough Recipe Doesn't Have Enough Liquid?

  • Pin It
BakerNewbie's picture
BakerNewbie

Dough Recipe Doesn't Have Enough Liquid?

I found a bun recipe that listed ingredients in volume. I converted it into weight and plugged it in a baker's percentage calculator so I can study it. A few questions:

1. The recipe is for a bread machine. I do not have a bread machine. I have read up online on how to convert the process of making the dough in a bread machine into no bread machine (using just mixer, hand kneading, etc.). Do I need to modify anything in the ingredients?

2. The ingredients call for 2.5 teaspoon bread machine yeast. I think I need to substitute this with active dry yeast? If so, by how much?

3. What is the total hydration for this recipe? Does this seem a bit dry? I'm guessing the milk, eggs, and butter contribute to the hydration level -- but I don't know what their water content is (or if that's the only consideration for factoring their effect on hydration).

4. I want to autolyse and use a water (milk, since this recipe doesn't have water) roux. For the water roux, I believe I should take 10% of the flour (63 grams) and add it to 5 times that of milk (63 * 5 = 315 grams, which this recipe doesn't have!). I don't even have enough liquid for a water roux. There is no way I can also do an autolyse.

5. Which ingredients listed are out of proportion now that I've converted this into weight? The salt is merely 1.3%, whereas King Arthur says it should be between 1.8 to 2%. So I think I'll be increasing the salt. Any other ingredients I need to increase/decrease (I'm hoping the liquid is one of them as I want to do this autolyse + water roux experiment)
 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Milk + Eggs + Oil = Hydration.

I do not know how to convert Margarine to % in Oil. But Milk + Eggs already = 55% hydration.

I believe 1% of the dough for active dry yeast is a good conversion. So you would want 12g which is probably 2.5 teaspoons at a guess.

That's the best I can do.

BakerNewbie's picture
BakerNewbie

I thought only water was factored in hydration calculations. Are you sure about the oil (in the margarine)?

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Oil, apparently, doesn't count for hydration. So your dough = 55% hydration which is normal.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

because whole eggs count for 65% hydration.

So lets work this out. 65% of 100g = 65g

65g for eggs + 245g milk = 49% (or a little less because milk doesn't = 100% like water does)

But all the same the margarine will add texture to the dough even if not actually hydration.

I think better to stick to a non machine bread recipe. Plenty out there to find.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

recipe has the hydration of bagels at around 52% and your machine will struggle.  I would increase the milk by at least 100 g to get the recipe to at least 67% hydration or 125 g to get it to 72%

Happy baking

Antilope's picture
Antilope

1. Bread machine recipes are usually very similar to recipes prepared by hand or mixer when it comes to ingredients. The main difference may be the type and amount of yeast used and how you add it.

To convert to hand or mixer preparation you proof yeast (for active dry yeast) mix and then knead until the dough is smooth (maybe 10 minutes of hand kneading or 7 minutes of mixer kneading on Speed 2). Then proof the covered dough dough for 45 to 60 minutes until doubled. You probably can follow the original recipe instructions from there.

2. With a sugar content greater than 12%, the sugar can rob moisture from the yeast causing a slow rise. This recipe is using almost 16% sugar. I would use at least 1.5% yeast in this recipe. The type of yeast is up to you. If you use active dry yeast, I would proof it first. I just mix instant yeast into the dry flour.

Active Dry Yeast is made up of little pellets surrounded by dead yeast cells to protect the live yeast cells inside, that's why proofing is necessary to break through the layer of dead cells.

Instant yeast is made up of little pellets with fewer dead cells surrounding the inner live cells, so it takes less moisture to break down the pellet. You can add it to dry flour and the recipe moisture will easily dissolve the instant yeast pellets.

3. The water and egg amount to about 55% hydration. I've read you can only count 75% of the eggs weight as liquid, the remainder is fat. The margarine is at least 80% fat (unless whipped margarine is used, which contains more water. Same applies to butter and whipped butter). So final hydration is probably still near 55%. That will make for dry, dense buns. I would use at least 65% to 70% hydration in this recipe. I depends on how you are going to process the buns. Kneading by hand can be difficult with higher hydrations. If you are making cinnamon buns and rolling them jelly roll style, then higher hydrations would not be advisable, I would use 65% hydration in that case. Even with weighing the ingredients, you still have to make final hydration adjustments by eyeballing it.

4. Most Tangzhong roux websites say to use 5% of the total flour weight in the roux and 5 times that weight in liquid. Those ingredients and quantities come from the above numbers, don't add extra to the recipe for the Tangzhong roux. For 630 grams of flour, the roux should use about 32 grams of flour and 160 grams of liquid. I've used water or milk to make a Tangzhong roux. I've also used a 50/50 mixture. The milk seems to make the roux a little thicker. I don't know what effect that has. The recipe requires more liquid, so this should make an autolyse feasible. 

5. This seems to be a sweet bun recipe. The hydration needs to be increased (more milk and or water), eggs are okay, fat is okay, this is a sweet recipe so salt is probably okay - more would be a personal preference, sugar is okay. I would increase the yeast to at least 1.5% due to the higher sugar content.

-----

Using the volume to weight conversion website at this link below, for 4 1/2 cups of flour I get 562 grams for all purpose and 616 grams for bread flour.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_volume_cooking.htm

BakerNewbie's picture
BakerNewbie

A. I am trying to make a cinnamon roll type recipe. I will adjust to make this 65% hydration by adding more milk.

B. With more milk, possibly lower weight estimate for the flour (that is why I HATE recipes that give measurements by volume; thanks for correcting my estimate), and only needing 5% flour for the water roux instead of 10%, I might have enough to do the autolyse. For the autolyse, do I combine 95% flour and remaining milk? Or would I put in the eggs and butter (melted) also? The autolyse I've been reading about always seems to be just flour and water -- but I don't have water in this recipe.

C. Should I scald the milk that goes in the autolyse?

Antilope's picture
Antilope

Autolyse is usually just flour and liquid. I would leave out the fats (most margarine or butter is also salted, unless you use unsalted). Eggs also have fats in the yolk. You could add just the whites to the autolyse if more moisture is needed. I have also added the cooled roux to autolyse when I tried the technique.

I've read that milk contains an enzyme that can weaken gluten. That's why it is scalded to inactivate that enzyme. I've used scalded and un-scalded milk in bread recipes and not noticed much difference. Maybe for long or retarded rises it would have more effect.

BakerNewbie's picture
BakerNewbie

Antilope, can you please look at the new recipe I posted? I've taken into account your comments.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

is advised. One way around this is to use powdered milk. I rarely use milk in my bread recipes but in the past, where I have done, not scalding has also worked. But then I haven't used as much milk as your using in your recipe.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I convert from cups to grams.  anyone else?   My flour is 563g  Milk is less, eggs are more and butter is less.  Sugar will act like a liquid in the recipe.  (but can't be counted in hydration)  I agree with upping the yeast.  

I think if may be dry but mix it like the recipe and then stand by with more milk or water.

What country is the recipe from?   ...and...  how big are your cups?  (when you fill one cup with flour and level it off, how much does the flour weigh?  140g???

If I take a 240ml cup of milk  and subtract 10% I get 216g,  90% of the egg white is water so if I add 90g (being generous here using large eggs) I get a total of 306g water  and when I divide that by 563g of flour (125g cup)  I get  54% hydration.   That is workable with AP wheat flour.  Granted, I would more than likely add more milk or water, a spoon (15g) at a time.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Problem with Cups is whenever I try to convert and look it up on google every single website has a different answer. Plus there are different cups measurements and too "all over the place".

Grams is the only way.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I would never use cup meassures as they are never 100% acurate.

I also do weigh my water in g as most measuring jugs or cups do not give the right amount needed.

Antilope's picture
Antilope

found an existing volume recipe that they are trying to convert to weights.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I should have read the post more careful before  I replied.

 

BakerNewbie's picture
BakerNewbie

I've updated the estimated weights of the volumes using http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_volume_cooking.htm. I then tweaked the recipe according to the recommendations I got here (e.g. aim for hydration of about 65%, increase yeast, etc.). For the hydration estimates:

- Milk is 95% water
- Eggs are 65% water
- Margarine is 15% water

For the roux, I would need to take 27.5 grams (5%) for flour and 137.5 grams of milk. I'm worried that the remaining flour and milk is not enough for autolyse. Should I try to add the egg whites in the autolyse? I want to avoid adding the fat (margarine, egg yolks) in the autolyse, right?

Also, does water roux really only need 5% of the flour? This reference says 10%: http://pastrychefonline.com/2013/08/28/tangzhong-water-roux-pain-au-lait/

Antilope's picture
Antilope

good cinnamon buns. The yeast percentage is a little low, given the amount of sugar. It will work, but you may see a slower rise than most cinnamon bun recipes state, so be prepared for that. 

You can calculate a hydration of 65%, but we really don't know the moisture content of the flour, so it could take a little more or less hydration to make a moist dough that you can roll out. You will have to make some small adjustments when finally handling the dough. I wouldn't be tied to just the numbers. The flour will take what it takes to make the dough you want.

Most Tangzhong roux websites use 5%. That's all I have ever used. Others may use different percentages. It may work for them, but that's unknown territory to me. You will have to try it and find out, I guess. I have seen warnings that too much Tangzhong roux can make a gummy crumb, but I don't know what that limit is.

You can make the Tangzhong roux first, cool it to room temperature and use it as part of the autolyze moisture. So I don't see a problem with not enough moisture for the autolyze. You don't want fat, etc in the autolyze. Just moisture and flour.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I was looking it up on youtube and a Japanese Girl said in her Video that it is 5 % of the Flour the reciep calls for x 5 that amount for the Water.

So a 500g loaf would use 25g of flour and 125g of Water to make the water roux.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It's just one recipe, try it first, get familiar with it and then make your tweaks. one at a time afterwards until you get what you're looking for.  By the way, the 7g of yeast looked better.  How about 10g?  :)