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No Knead Sourdough Rye Recipe

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AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

No Knead Sourdough Rye Recipe

Hi All,

Need some advice. The last time I tried my first sourdough 100% Rye it was a huge flop. Could've sold it to a builder for bricks. I don't know what I did wrong. My 100% Rye Starter is very healthy! I have a standard recipe that I convert for all flours and works really well, till I tried it with Rye.

450g flour

66% Hydration

45g Starter @ 100% hydration

11g Salt

I have had big success with Spelt, Khorasan, Einkorn (even) using this formula but my Rye didn't get off the ground.

Thanks guys

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

What kind of Rye are you talking about here? A dark rye or a light rye?

The recipe I use for a 100% dark rye loaf has to be tinned and comes out very much like a malt loaf, i.e. like a dense cake. I add sultanas to mine and it makes a great accompanyment to a cheese board. Conversely, many artisan bakeries have a light rye loaf as standard in their repertoire and use special light rye flour. These loaves come out like "normal" loaves, don't require tins, have plenty of oven spring and are scored as per other loaves. They make great toast.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

forgot to hit the reply button. See comment below.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Doves Wholegrain Dark Rye, which is what I've used in my starter and has worked. I specify no knead in the title as it was very difficult to handle. It didn't like the stretch and fold at all, just tore.

How do you tin a loaf?

I'm looking for a sandwich loaf with caraway seeds. Putting raisins in it hasn't occurred to me but nice idea.

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

I'm looking for a sandwich loaf

In that case dark rye is not the right flour. You'll not be able to create a nice sandwich loaf imo using 100% dark rye. What you need for that is light rye, which is rye that has been sifted to collect the lighter elements. You could mix a little dark rye with a much larger quantity of white flour to make a sandwich loaf, say 90% white 10% rye. Note that even for a traditional Pain De Campagne sourdough loaf only a small proportion of dark rye is used which is mixed with white flour and also sometimes wholewheat.

Rye is a lovely grain don't get me wrong. It adds a great nutty flavour and depth to any bread but, it has little gluten content so has to be used sparingly in any loaf that is designed to be light and airy. However there is a whole world of great recipes that involve large proportions of rye. Lots of German Rye breads, pumpernickles and so on.

How do you tin a loaf?

With a 100% dark rye mix you simply scoop the wet mass of dough into the tin. Then using a spatula dipped in water you smooth the top surface and then angle/bevel it at the edges so it looks like the roof of a house. Then sprinkle some rye flour all over the top and let the loaf proof. During the proofing as the dough rises up the tin you get a great cracked top surface. Then simply bake.
Should look something like this:

Again, remember tha tthis is NOT a sandwhich loaf. It's a dense but tasty loaf to accompany things like cheese.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

I like non sandwich loaves too. Infact I do bake more non sandwich loaves than not. I've got a lot of Dark Rye left over so I think i'm going to attempt this first. Yes, I love the flavour of Rye with caraway seeds. I've heard a lot that Rye is hard to work with but from what I've seen from all these posts it might turn out to be easier. Mix and leave - even I can do that :) I just need to get the formula right. I'm gonna attempt this this weekend.

 

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

Rye isn't hard to work with, you just need to appreciate that it is a different kind of flour with its own unique properties.

Here's the recipe for the loaf above.  It's really easy and makes a delicious loaf.  It's is made with an overnight preferment.

Preferment -   150g dark rye flour, 100g rye starter, 200g water    (mix, cover and leave overnight)

Main Dough -   200g dark rye flour, 150g hot water, 6g salt, 200g sultanas plus the preferment

Simply mix up the main dough, spoon into a greased loaf tin, smooth the top surface, add a generous sprinkle of rye flour on top so it is all covered.  Leave to proof in a warm place for about 2 hours.  Bake for about 30mins as is.

Note that for the above quantities (750g loaf) you need a smaller loaf tin than the usual.  Most kitcheny type stores sell them.

 

GL

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Was just working out how to do the math to make the size of loaves I usually when I realised you've got it spot on :) Oh Gosh it's hot today. That's a nice recipe. It's looks pretty straight forward. I do make it in a breadmaker and it's a pretty small breadpan. Infact perfect for 650g loaf. I've still yet to invest in that mini oven. Some expenses cropt up. You say bake for 30min but because of the breadmaker i'll do 40-45min (give it time to heat up).

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

of the difference between rye flour and wheat flour, Abe.  Assuming that 100% of the flour in your bread was rye flour, it's no surprise that the dough did not stand up to kneading or to stretch and folds. 

Rye flour has a limited amount of rather weak gluten; it requires a different process than wheat/spelt/emmer/farro flours.  One-hundred percent rye breads depend more on some complex sugars called pentosans to trap gas and provide structure in the loaf.  While they will tolerate limited handling, their bonds are far too weak to for "normal" (in a wheat flour sense) kneading techniques.

Since there is such a wealth of informatoin already posted here on TFL, I won't spoil your fun by giving an extended dissertation here.  Enjoy your research; there is so much cool stuff to learn.

Paul

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Didn't expect it to behave totally different. I thought if I could handle Einkorn then I could handle anything! How wrong I was.

aroma's picture
aroma

100% Rye bread will always be a bit dense and nothing like 'normal' bread - I would have said that you need a lot more starter and a higher hydration.  The last batch I made was:-

300g dark rye flour,  250g water (about 83% hydration),  3g salt and the starter/yeast (I think I used instant yeast that time).

Just mix and put it into a 1lb tin, leave overnight and bake next morning - it couldn't be simpler.  It was heavy - a bit like pumpernickel but really tasty.

 Don't give up

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

I'll try 83% hydration. Should be easy if it's no knead. I'll look around for recommended starter amount or adapt from other recipes.

 

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Working with 100% rye dough is like working with clay, you can not really knead.

I use more Sourdough Starter than you do, about 200g and I use the Stand Mixer to mix the * dough * .

I than hand * knead * it for a couple of minutes, put / press it in the greased loaf tin and let it sit for 8 - 12 hours * over night * before I bake it.

I also use dark treacle in my recipe and some sunflower seeds.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Exactly! Very heavy. As soon as I had made the dough I was wondering if anything could lift it. Oh well live and learn. Beginning to get he idea now. Thank you.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

will work just fine.  You can easily test when you feed your starter   do a 1:8.3:10  feeding  (s:w:f)   or 5:42:50  and see how long it takes to peak packed into the bottom of a narrow glass.  Make a mark every hour.  After peaking, let it stand another hour or two before using to make sure it is good and sour.   

As you can see, this will more or less give you your timing for your loaf.  No rise the first 3 to 4 hrs. at 23°C.

Mix the pasty dough, a little less than half way to peak (about the time it starts rising) spoon the dough from the mixing bowl into a buttered form and shape the top with a wet spatula. (score if you want to)  Then let take the time to  rise to your 3/4 mark on your test before baking.  If you keep track of when you mixed your dough it should be easy to guess about when that will happen, all conditions being equal.  You see bubbles rise (in a glass pan) bulge (the smooth surface) and then break the surface.  Bake it at 3/4 before it peaks and just as you see a few bubbles breaking the bumpy surface.  Wet a tooth pick and dock your loaf.  Smooth the surface gently with wet fingers or spatula.  Then bake.   I like to use an oven about 190°C on the rise to 230°C and then, once reached, wait 10 to 15 minutes and  let it fall back down to 190°- 200°C to finish the bake.  96°C inside temp  or 205°F.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

You want me to test with either 1:8.3:10 or 5:42:50

[which i'm assuming is e.g. 1g:8.3g:10g or 5g:42g:50g]

but then use my fed 100% hydration starter in the recipe

Or actually feed my starter this before using 10% of my starter in the recipe.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or 83% hydrated   and  5:42:50 is grams, correct.  (ratio multiplied by 5) 

Use this 83% hydration test in the recipe 45g of starter,  water would be 374g water (83% hydration) and 450g rye flour.  with the same salt amount.

If you feed your starter this way, 5g starter : (42g water : 50g rye flour)  you get a practice run at the loaf dough.  See it?   

Then use the starter and times for your loaf.  Your starter should be able to handle a one to ten feeding easily inside of 8hrs above 23°C  (26°C preferred)   The starter should be able to peak in 8 hrs.  If not, you may have to strengthen the starter.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

Good idea to take off some starter and feed it the same ratio to the bread and see its reaction. I'm liking it very much. Great thing about this site is all the great ideas.

Thank you!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Rye is Mini's 100% Whole rye with walnuts at 104% hydration.  I think your hydration at 66% is too low for sure and wouldn't think of doing a loaf like this at less than 90% hydration, It will work better for you at that hydration, will rise better and be more open and less dense. 

For a Jewish Deli Rye sandwich loaf, I like 40% whole rye to 60% bread flour or AP at around 77.5% hydration but some prefer 30% whole rye which is more standard and 75% hydration.  Caraway is up to you  but 4% would be a good place to start in the America's   It could easily be omitted in Europe.

Happy Rye baking

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"Caraway... could easily be omitted in Europe."

whack the seeds a little bit with a big knife or in a mortar.  Nuke in water to soften if you need to.  

Grinding them in a coffee grinder works well but will dull the plastic cover.  (just a warning)

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11

You've just brought back memories of Katz's in NY. I wanna try this as well now. I always stick to 66% as that is the hydration that i'm comfortable to handle (at the moment). Will eventually do higher however still at the beginning stage but have learned loads from this site. since this is a no knead bread i'll have no problems with higher hydration.

No Caraway?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

most no knead bread recipes are all very high hydration and make wet dough?  The more whole grain they are, the more water they need.  makes the mixing much easier, the bread less dense after baking and, since no kneading is required - no worries.  100% whole grain rye breads are basically all no knead recipes. I'd start at 90% hydration - 66% is way too low if you don't like bricks :-)

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

It might not be considered Jewish rye anymore but it tastes wonderful.  Since I have a spouse who dislikes caraway, using the dill or fennel seeds gives her the chance to enjoy the bread, too.

Or you could use brotgewurz.  I don't remember the exact proportions of the caraway, fennel, and coriander but it's a great addition to high-rye breads.

Paul