The Fresh Loaf

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Problem with second rising when using 100% wholemeal in mix ?

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flynnboy's picture
flynnboy

Problem with second rising when using 100% wholemeal in mix ?

Hi

This is becoming very frustrating. I've been making my own bread for years but I have a constant problem when adding 100% stoneground wholemeal to my mix. I have tried 50/50 (white/brown) and progressively reduced the brown by 1oz each baking but still my loaf struggles to rise on the 2nd rising. It rises fine on the 1st rising but I do prefer to give it a second. I am now on 12 white - 4 brown and it is still struggling even with x2 sachets of yeast in the mix.

I could add Vit' C but I'd rather not. So what is the problem and how on Earth do artisan or commercial bakers make 100% wholemeal when I cannot even get mine to rise with the above combinations of white/brown. really very frustrating as I do know how to make bread !?

I'd be really grateful for any ideas about this.

Thanks

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

My 100% whole wheat sourdough bread doesn't rise as high as white bread, but it does rise twice.  Some of the rise in the finished loaf occurs in the oven.  The bread makes nice sandwiches.  What I feel was the key to making nice bread from 100% whole wheat is soaking all of the flour overnight, in either a pre-ferment or a pre-soak.  In my case, I pre-soak two-thirds of the flour and pre-ferment one-third of it.  In the morning I combine the two parts along with a little salt and oil.  I knead it in my mixer, and let it rise for two or three hours.  I form it into a loaf, put it in a pan, and let it rise for about another half-hour.  Then I bake it for one hour.  The bread rises some more in the oven and the top splits a little during the baking.

 

flynnboy's picture
flynnboy

Thanks MC. Perhaps I should be clearer, it does rise on the 2nd rising, but not enough, certainly not as much as I'd like it to. It 'struggles' and takes most of the day to get up to anything like what it should be to make a decent size loaf. I always do the 1st rising overnight. It's just a mystery to me why,, as soon as I add even just 4oz of wholemeal to 12oz of white, it becomes very difficult. I make 'perfect' white bread no problem, but I do really prefer to have a decent amount of 100% wholemeal.

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

The baked loaf is never going to be as tall and fluffy made with a substantial amount of whole meal, as it is when made entirely with refined flour.  That is part of why people refine flour.  Refined flour is more purely starch than whole meal.  Whole meal also contains bran and germ, which means that for a given weight of flour there is less pure starch.  I would not ferment mine overnight and then also all of the following day.

If you want some flavors that might be produced from fermenting overnight, I would only ferment a third of it.  My second rise is very short because otherwise the dough does not rise in the oven, but rather falls.  I have even considered skipping the second rise, and putting the dough into the loaf pan for the first rise.  I suspect that would create larger holes and make bread which is less suitable for sandwiches, but it might be worth trying in the summertime when everything ferments more quickly in my kitchen.  Realize in the above that if I were to ferment 100% of the dough overnight, I would be talking about a second and third rising.  I'm not doing exactly what you are doing, because my overnight fermentation is only one-third of my dough.  But maybe my thoughts are useful to you.

 Edit: But still pre-soak the rest of the flour, with 100% whole meal.  Otherwise the bran will not be soft enough when you knead the dough together in the morning.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

flynnboy,

Are you using the same timing schedule when adding wholemeal flour to your dough? If so, it may be over-proofing in the bulk fermentation period. If that turns out to be your issue, there are at least two easy ways to fix it. You can decrease your inoculation, so the fermentation takes longer, or you can decrease the time of the bulk fermentation. Ideally, you should be watching the dough, not the clock. But, as a long-time baker, it is also right that you should able to predict how long everything will take with a certain level of accuracy.

flynnboy's picture
flynnboy

If you mean am I using the same schedule as I use for my white, i.e. 1st proving overnight, then yes I am.

What do you mean by decreasing the 'inoculation' - less yeast ?

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

I'm used to saying 'inoculation' because I bake with sourdough, and the 'inoculation' is the amount of starter to use. But, it will still hold true for the yeast you use. I like dabrownman's explanation about why using less is important for whole grains, so I won't bore you by repeating what he said.

Actually, I will add this to what he said. Instead of using the original amount of yeast and cutting the time, you could use the original amount of time and cut the yeast. Fewer "mouths to feed" will translate into the food lasting longer, so you can continue doing what you've always done.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

as MC says but it will be much faster to do so.  Adding more yeast just makes it worse.  The first proof is way too long and the huge amount of yeast is eating all the food so there is nothing left to eat for the 2nd proof.  Cut the yeast back to the original amount and cut the first proof time you use for the the white bread in half,or even more, for the whole wheat.  There should be enough food left for the yeast to eat and make a good 2nd rise.  It won't rise as much as white beard but you will get a nice loaf none the less.

Happy baking

flynnboy's picture
flynnboy

DavidEF and dabrowman, thanks, that makes sense, I'll give it a go ;-

Just one more thing; I only ever use flour/water/yeast/salt .  If I'm adding 100% wholemeal to the mix is it worth considering adding some black treacle/molasses/honey or something like that to help the yeast along ?

What would be your usual time frame for 1st rising ?

Thanks