The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

holes holes holes

angiechia's picture
angiechia

holes holes holes

If formula is 70% or even 75% hydration but still cannot see the open crumbs, what could be the reason? What brings about the big holes?

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

Several factors could contribute to big holes (or lack thereof) . . . certainly, high hydration CAN lead to big holes in the crumb, but you also run the risk of overhydrating and baking a thick pancake, which probably won't have any holes, either.

If you are using levain (SD), make sure your starter is VERY active before getting it to leaven your bread. I have learned from A LOT of trial and error that the path to good, open crumbs begins with a starter that is going to feed big and burp big. I always build my starter up with at least three feeds prior to using him in a bread dough (stuck to the old French tradition, I suppose). I'm sure there is a feeding regiment that encourages big holes vs. small ones (I only say this from observation of my own levain's activities--sometimes, big bubbles, other times, lots of smallies), but I don't know what it is. Try both stiff and wet levains and see what works for you.

Also, you can maybe get the gluten a little bit more developed, or let it proof a little bit longer. By letting my doughs proof for longer times, I have seen my crumbs expand significantly.

Good luck and keep us posted !

suambumeri's picture
suambumeri

Your hydration seems fine for a more open crumb.
I find that if I handle the dough as gently as possible, especially the further you go into the fermentation, I seem to get a more open crumb. I am sure there are other factors as well though. When shaping, pour it out carefully and shape really gently so as not to deflate the gas bubbles that developed during the rise. Not sure what shape you do. I usually do a boule which doesn't require elaborate shaping techniques. I just give it a few 'twists' to make it round and create more surface tension.

All the best.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

Active Starter is very important.

If your starter lives in the fridge you really need to give it 3 feeds before baking.

If you are not sure if you Starter is ready for baking you can test it.

Pour some water in a bowl and gently take about a tsp of starter and put it in the Water.

If it sinks to the bottom it is not ready, if it is float will leaven a bread.

Have a gentle touch with your Dough, try not to disturb it to much, best is to give it a series of Stretch and folds over a period of a few hours.

6 Stretch and Folds every 30 Minutes for 3 hours works best for me.

Give your Dough a long bulk fermentation time.

I let mine bulk ferment over Night in the Fridge, than a few  hours to warm up before shaping.

You a light touch when you take the dough out of the bowl and gently press it down before shaping.

Treat your dough like a Baby, gentle , gentle and patiently with a lot of love:)

For the longest time I did not like those big holes, but I start  to prefer them now, just not to big , I do not like crust and holes, I want to have something to bite in to.

Medium does it for me:)

 

golgi70's picture
golgi70

While a proper levain is of utmost importance not only for structure but for flavor and dough strength there is more to an open crumb.  In fact many achieve open crumb at lower hydration (<70%) with proper gluten development and fermentation.  Then  there is handling of dough to contribute as well.  

If you could post a picture and your process (as detailed as possible) we could be of more assistance.  

If I made an 80% hydration dough and built up too much strength you'd be surprised to see a dough with uniform and relatively smaller cell structure.  While if I made a 68% hydration dough and brought just enough strength and bulk retarded overnight followed with good shaping and a perfect final proof you'd be surprised to see a nice open irregular and lacey crumb.  

While hydration is a key to a very open crumb it is only a small piece of the puzzle

Cheers 

Josh

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I totally agree with you Josh.

I love to work with 60% hydration and still get an open crumb.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

It really makes a difference to get the starch in a dough developed as well as the gluten. I believe it is easier to do that with a slighter higher hydration dough but definitely achieved with a lower hydration as well . It just takes more kneading or S&F and time.

I have also found that being VERY gentle with the dough is important. I have never figured out why recipes instruct to deflate the dough or punch it down. I would ONLY do that if I wanted a finer texture such as sandwich bread. S&F (Gently) allows the bubbles to be evenly distributed and not overproofing at the final proof is also very important.Then the bubbles tend to collapse as the gluten strands deteriorate.

Bake some delicioiusness today!

angiechia's picture
angiechia

thanks for all comments. I will post the bread I made, using txfarmer's formula in a while.

But for now, can I clarify a few pointers.

For the starter, how often do we need to refresh? and does the amount of flour/water added affect its activity? I usually feed about 12 hours apart, only twice. And use it when it has risen and quite bubbly. Does it mean that refreshing it with smaller meals but more frequently is more effective than 2 bigger meals but more spaced out?

I have some levain being refreshed at the moment. Thanks so much Petra, will definitey try your sink/float method tonight to test for readiness. Wish me luck!

Yes, I think I did lose some precious bubbles during the S&F process. Even though I oil the container, each time I pour it out to the floured table to S&F, some will stick on surface of the bowl and tear the gluten. So after each S&F, I seem to get back to somewhat the original volume.

angiechia's picture
angiechia

this is the baguette I made using txfarmer's formula. Because I was not sure if the problem was with my levain, I tried both the straight yeasted method and the 36hr SD method.

this is the 36hr SD - some holes but far too little

 

more on the crumb

 

 

and the base was flatten

and this one below is the straight yeasted method, better shape, very soft, but also no trademark holes

the purpose of S&F is to strengthen the gluten? I did 4 sets over 3 hours. If I do more, does it help prevent the flatten finished product?

During the shaping stage, the dough is usually very soft to touch. So a fair bit of bubbles do burst when shaping? I try to be gentle especially when shaping it long. I wonder if being too gentle result in the crust not being tighten enough and hence unable to hold the shape too?

I find that I usually don't know when to send the dough to bake. Never really sure when it's proven enough?

The bread usually collapse during scoring too. But once I left it uncovered during the last 15 minutes, it seemed that the dryer skin is easier to score. ie less collapse. Anyone share the same?

 

 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Your photos are not super sharp, but, from what I can see, your crumb structure is within the ideal range for baguettes. Please realize that the extremely open crumb with huge holes some strive for is kind of fun, it is not regarded as desirable by all. 

What you are describing with your levain and showing us in your photos suggests your levain is very healthy and your gluten development and dough fermentation are on target. From your loaf cross section, crust color and scoring, I suspect you would benefit from focusing on your loaf shaping and baking routines, including oven temperature, pre-heating and steaming. Also, your description of your loaves collapsing when you score them is highly suggesting (if not diagnostic) of over-proofing. Do you know about the "poke test?"

David

PetraR's picture
PetraR

This is the kind of Crumb I love.

Holes but not to big, so that one can actualy eat bread and not holes.

Also, you can spread things on it without worries that all lands on the plate underneath.

angiechia's picture
angiechia

thanks for your encouragement, David and Petra. Certainly need lots more practice. Haha, those pockets of bubbles, borrowing txfarmer's word - the "chase" for more bubbles! The moment of excitement, and revelation when the bread is sliced ..

 I did not do a poke test, but just go by feeling, which I guess is not accurate. I just sent them into the oven when I see they feel really soft, with lots of bubbles - as if they are going to burst any moment. Just did a search, will try that method the next round. Thanks for your suggestion, David.

Petra, guess what? I just did the sink/float test few hour ago too. I was so excited to see it staying on top of the water. So after a series of S&F, the dough is looking good now, fermenting in the chiller. Will have to wait till tomorrow to see the result!