The Fresh Loaf

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Kneading question

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tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

Kneading question

Greetings all, I'm hoping for a little help with 100% whole wheat bread.  For years, I've been mixing and kneading in  my bread machine and I get the most wonderfully airy, light loaves.  I take the blue ribbon at the fair every year I enter them.

Each time I try to duplicate my bread using a stand mixer (I have a KitchenAid 610 and an Ankarsrum Original) I get bricks.  Or what I consider dense loaves.  I use 3 cups of freshly milled wheat for two 4.5 x 8.5 loaves when I mix my dough in my bread machine.  I need nearly 6 cups of flour to get loaves the same size using the stand mixers.

Today, I timed the kneading cycle on my bread machine (a Zojirushi, double paddles).  It's a full 20 minutes!  And, I normally reset it and run it through again, so my dough is getting kneaded for 40 minutes, with a 30 minute rest between cycles.

Can I be totally under kneading my dough in the stand mixers?  I usually let them knead for about 10 minutes.  I use the roller and scraper on the Ankarsrum, and the paddle on the KitchenAid.

I would love to get rid of the bread machine, but I can't make a light and airy whole grain bread without it.  I know 6 cups of wheat flour is the standard for 2 loaves of bread, but I can't stand it that dense.  Any suggestions before I drive myself crazy?  

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

Knead the dough for 40 minutes in either of the machines (keep an eye on the KitchenAide so that it doesn't overheat), then bake the bread.  That should give you your answer.

Extended kneading time, usually in the 25-30 minute range, is often recommended as a way to achieve a lighter texture in a whole wheat bread.

Paul

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

Thank you Paul, I will try it.  I guess I was under the impression that a long kneading cycle like that in the mixer would break the gluten down to mush.

PetraR's picture
PetraR

I would say to knead on a low speed in the Kitchen Aid and use the Dough hook rather than the paddle.

Let us know how it worked out, maybe I shall use my Kenwood Chef Stand Mixer if you get a good result.

I would love to try a 100% Wholemeal Bread.

ghazi's picture
ghazi

Im not versed with using this, though I know with 100% WW or any whole grain for that matter its better to make a wetter dough and of course the kneading is key for lightness. It takes more time to knead by hand though its totally worth it and you can never really over kneed by hand. With using a Kitchen Aid you should use the dough hook as Petra says and mix on low speed for about 15min. Then increase to about medium for further 5 min this should give you your desired results. Air bubbles are always a good indication.

I also could not resist kneading a little by hand after removing from machine. That's just me though with kneading especially by hand. When you are using a dough hook on a kitchen aid always go long and slow and your chances of overkneading are very low if anything. Hope this helps

Ghazi

PetraR's picture
PetraR

If I do kneading than I love kneading by hand.

When I started Baking Bread I found it vital to knead by Hand to get a feel for the Dough going through the different stages.

When you learn to knead by hand you will learn A LOT about your Dough and that will help you make good bread:)

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

Time, I have found, is also an important element in whole wheat breads not made by machine. When I make really high percentage whole wheat breads, I really up the hydration (85-90%), and stretch the final proof as long as possible, upwards of 18-20 hours. These adaptations have yielded some pretty light breads for the amount of WW they contain, though not quite Wonder Bread-airy. But then again, I don't do much kneading on my doughs either.

So perhaps a combination of an extended kneading and a long proof might satisfy?

ghazi's picture
ghazi

That's exactly the route I go. Not easy to get an airy WW in one day. It takes more time for the grains to soak in the moisture and realize their potential releasing all those gorgeous sugars that we associate with a really good brown bread.. Whole wheat breads can never be too airy, I think that's the beauty of them. The more I bake the more I love cakey textures. Though if you want to maximize on that area as Lepain Samidien says time is your best friend.

Maybe the science behind the bread machine does some magic but we as humans have to wait a little longer for something made by hand.

 

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

Thank you everyone.  I make gorgeous whole wheat bread, I know exactly how the dough should look and feel to get the results I'm after.  What I can't duplicate are the results I get using the bread machine if I use a stand mixer.  I'm trying to figure out WHY?

I'm using the exact same recipe.

My dough is too wet to use the dough hook on the KA, it won't knead it well at all unless I use the paddle.

When it comes out of the bread machine, it almost feels like mousse.  I'll try kneading it for the same 40 minutes in the stand mixer and report back.

I stopped kneading dough by hand years ago, it's too painful for my hands.  I do occasionaly make no knead breads, and some using the stretch and fold method, but those aren't whole grain breads.

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

Here's a few photos of my WW bread kneaded in the bread machine.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Tinksquared,  I don't know if the time spent kneading can be compared - the paddles in a bread machine are pretty small and so 20 minutes of kneading in a bread machine may be more like 5 or 10 minutes in a mixer.  On the other hand, if you use 3 cups of flour in the bread machine, and use 6 cups with a mixer, the one with 6 cups will be dense.  I would try using the mixer with just 3 cups of flour.   BTW,  nice loaves in the photo. 

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

THAT is exactly what I was wondering.  I'm afraid 40 minutes of kneading in a mixer will destroy the dough.  I guess I have nothing to lose by trying though right?  My chickens are enjoying all the screw ups :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the mixer machine.  There is no advantage of kneading the dough before the dough has fully hydrated.  

Try this and compare: With whole wheat, as soon as the dry flour is moistened, turn off the mixer (cover the bowl the best you can with a wet towel or piece of plastic to prevent drying) and let the rough particles of whole wheat absorb the water and hydrate.  Anywhere from 30 min to an hour.   Then go back to mixer-kneading or hand kneading.  The differences between waiting and not waiting are phenomenal!   Reduce your yeast to time in a good soaking or sprinkle in the yeast after the WW has soaked.  

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

I agree.  I always let my flour autolyse for 30 minutes, knead, rest again, and repeat. That is exactly what my bread machine does and I've been trying to duplicate it.

3 cups of flour in the mixer will only make one loaf that looks like the above picture.  That same 3 cups of flour gives me those two loaves when I make it in the bread machine, it's simply twice as light as the mixer dough.  WHY.... why why?  LOL

caraway's picture
caraway

in my Bosch.  Hydration is at 80% and is pretty mushy while mixing but at the end of my second 20 minute slow mix it comes together, gets smooth and clears the sides and (almost) the bottom of the bowl.  Got to this method thanks to Txfarmer's posts on getting soft light textured crumb.  Also, do a one hour rest between mixing.  Have to use cold water and cover with wet towel to keep the dough from getting too hot.

Good luck, hope this helps.

 

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

tinksquared,  it is easy to just stuck in a dead end, but we should be able to work this out. If you use a certain amount of flour and water in a bread machine, you should end up with the exact same loaf if you use a mixer, providing you treat it exactly the same way.  I am not familiar with the Zo, but I just went to their site and read one of the manuals, it sets forth the timing of each mode for different settings - so all we need is to duplicate that -  though I would suggest we cut the mixing kneading time in the DLX half since your DLX is at least twice as efficient as the breadmachine.   If you want to send me the model number, which bake mode you are working on and a recipe, we can see if we can break it down.  I am wondering whether the bread machine may pulse on the heat a little during the rest periods, and that is giving your more lift. One way to try to get to the bottom is to make two loaves, one in the Zo and one in the DLX at the same time and see when they start to look different.  There is nothing all that magic about the way the Zo kneads ( I know I don't have the Zo, but I have made bread using the  DLX for some loaves, and made similar loaves using just a few stretch and folds and no kneading and got the same results, so it can't be the Zo ).  

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

I agree, it should be the same!  I use the long dough cycle on my Zoji, which heats up without kneading for about 30 minutes prior to mixing.  Since I run this cycle twice, it gets a 30 minutes heated rest before the 2nd kneading.  Here is the recipe I use, I just wrote it down for another Zoji user the other day.

The Zoji does an amazing job of kneading, with the double paddles.  It does throw the dough around as much as a mixer, but it does pull and twist it more.  The action is quite different.


Set it for the dough cycle (the long one).
Add in the following order:

1 1/2 cups warm water
1 egg
2 tsp bread salt (I love KAF’s bread salt, but you can use table salt).
1/4 cup melted butter or oil
2 Tbs. molasses
1 Tbs honey
3 Tbs gluten
1/2 cup KAF Harvest Grain Blend (optional)
3 cups freshly ground whole wheat
2 tsp instant yeast.

As soon as the dough cycle finishes kneading, reset it and let it run again, this time leaving it to rise afterwards.

At the end of the first cycle, the dough will be pretty sticky and probably won’t leave the sides of the pan. That’s okay. After it rests again, and starts the 2nd kneading cycle, it will have absorbed a lot more water. If the dough doesn’t pull aways from the sides then, add a smidge more flour.

Then on a clean counter, pour a little water and dump the loaves out, split and shape into loaves and let rise in bread pans. Bake at 350 degrees for 25-35 minutes (25 in metal, 35 in clay in my oven).

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Tinksquared, what model Zo do you have, each instruction manual is a little different- and I want to check the timing of each cycle?

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

Model is BBCC-X20

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

This works for me using a KitchenAid:

1. Mix flour and water and mix for 4 minutes (kneading hook).

2. Cover and allow to hydrolyze for 30 minutes.

3. Knead dough for 10 minutes.

4. Rest for 10 minutes.

5. Knead dough for 4 minutes (dough should pass the window pane test at the end).

6. Add levain and knead for 4 minutes (fruits, nuts, cheeses etc. added at this time also).

7. Add salt and knead for 4 minutes.

The takeaway is to always develop the gluten before adding anything - including salt.

Wild-Yeast 

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

Thank you, I may give that a shot and see how it works.

tinksquared's picture
tinksquared

Wild Yeast, I want to thank you so much.  Developing the gluten before adding anything else did the trick, my whole wheat bread finally turned out perfect without the bread machine kneading it!  I still don't understand why the bread machine can do this perfectly when all the ingredients are added at the same time, but I no longer care, I can finally make bulk batches of whole wheat now, yippee!!!!

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

@tinksquared,

Great news! Glad you were able to free yourself from the bread machine. I use to add everything at the same time - a sort of fire and forget type of thing. After reading "The Breadbuilders" I changed to developing the gluten in the main dough before adding "anything" else.

By the way this works for San Francisco Sourdough French Bread.

The Levain is developed separately and allowed to sour to your degree of ripeness before adding it to your fully developed gluten main dough (usually a full days ferment with a stretch and fold midway through). 4 minutes to mix it in fully with the dough hook. The dough will settle to the bottom of the bowl - when if starts forming string things it's time to add the salt. Continue kneading the salt in for 4 more minutes - the dough will tighten up leaving the bottom of the bowl forming a ball that the hook will knead into a ball of dough ready for bulk fermentation. Adding the salt and watching the gluten tighten up is one of the better demonstrations of bread biochemistry in action.

Happy Baking!

Wild-Yeast 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Tinksquared, that model does not have an instruction manual on the website, it says to call Zo with the serial number.  For some of the other models, they list some pretty specific info on the length of each cycle, which would make it easier to duplicate outside the machine.