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Ultra high protein bread

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rollo's picture
rollo

Ultra high protein bread

Hi,

I am making breads for a while but only using white flour. I do a lot of lifting so recently I wanted to add some protein to my breads. I added 100g unflavoured whey isolate first but realized I shouldn't have subtracted that amount from the actual flour as recommended by others online.

Since I am using a bread machine, I corrected the mistake and found out that I had to go over the actual flour amount.

This time for another recipe, I added 150g whey and not sure if it's because of a different recipe, I had to add an additional 330g flour so it's not super sticky.

After some quick calculations, it appears that there is a physical limit as to how much protein I can add, because no matter how much you add, you have to compensate by adding more flour which reduces the protein content per unit.

Taste wise it's virtually the same so I want to keep using it. But this protein amount is not astonishing for me.

Now I read about gluten flour, I was wondering what's the deal with that? Is that what people call whole wheat? Because I read on some sites that if you use 100% gluten, the bread would be like a rock. But I have seen 100% whole wheat breads and they weren't that bad. Maybe they are different.

I am basically wondering if I can use gluten flour instead of while flour, and if so, is it 1 to 1 ratio? Also do I have to look for a specific gluten flour just like there is bleached and unbleached flour, etc?

Thanks alot.

adri's picture
adri

Please look up, what whole grains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_grain) compared to refained grains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refined_grain) (the standard flour you use) are.

Gluten is more or less the proteins you find in wheat flour, that makes the dough stick together when kneaded. It also makes the dough trap gas (produced by the yeasts or introduced while kneading) and therefore makes the bread fluffy. Not enough: brick; Too much: too chewy.

In the US, gluten powder is sold as "vital wheat gluten", I think. Not to be mixed up with "Hi(gh) gluten flour" which is a flour that just has a bit more gluten.

Other proteins (like whey proteins) don't do the magic of building a mesh when kneaded and trapping gases. What you therefore might want to try is: Buy some "vital wheat gluten". For the extra powder added, add another 12% of "vital wheat gluten".

High protein bread will never taste like "real" bread. When reducing cabs for some time I prefer eating less but better quality bread. The same goes for calories: Better a smaller piece of cake than fat reduced cake ;)

Nevertheless: I still have some protein powder (multi component: soy, whey, milk, egg) and some gluten powder. I'll try something for myself and report back.

Adrian

adri's picture
adri

OK, I now made HIGH PROTEIN BAGUETTES:

A view things I noticed "substituting" flour with protein powder:

  • More water is needed
  • Gluten is needed to keep things together
  • Yeast needs to be fed better. (Flour is food to yeast, protein powder isn't)

I went for adding diastatic malt. It splits the starch of the remaining flour and therefore gives more food to the yeast. You might also add a half teaspoon of sugar.

My formula:

  • 111g Protein Powder (Formula90-type)
  • 14g Gluten Powder
  • 21g Whole Einkorn wheat
  • 120g All Purpose wheat
  • 5g Salt
  • 3g diastatic malt
  • 4g yeast
  • 205g water


Knead well; let rest for 35 minutes; form baguettes, let sit for 20 minutes, score and bake with steam for 20 to 25 minutes at 200 to 250°C.




Some numbers:
Flour+Protein: 266g
Hydration: 266g/205g = 77% (felt like 58% with normal flour)

Bread weight after baking: 417g (A lot of dough got lost sticking to my fingers.)

Calories: (369*1.11 + 377*0.14 + 348*0.21 + 336*1.20)=938.65
Protein: (77.1*1.11 + 80*0.14 + 15*0.21 + 11.8*1.20)=114.1
Carbs: (9.3*1.11 + 12*0.14 + 58*0.21 + 68.1*1.20)=105.9

Protein/Carbs-Ratio: 1.08 !!! (My AP-flour has just a ratio of 0.17)

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

Since Adri already explained some about vital wheat gluten and whole and refined flours, I'll skip that.

You could also add more protein by substituting not for the flour, but for the water. Enriched breads containing milk and eggs also have a higher protein content. You could also add bits of chopped nuts, shredded cheese, cooked lentils, or even bits of meat into the dough and increase the protein that way. 

These breads made with milk and eggs in the dough will bake up a bit differently; softer and needing a lower temperature, and browning a good bit. There's plenty of recipes for that kind of thing; try searching for "enriched breads" and look around until you see something you like.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot for replying, appreciate it.

I forgot to mention in my OP, even though I made breads using water, these ones I used milk + yogurt + egg (1) similar to this for instance:

http://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/bread-machine-naan

Also if I were to substitute protein from water, or milk, how does it work? Is it 1 to 1 g to ml? So addign 100g protein, you subtract 100ml water/milk?

The last one I made looked like this:

I only made 2 bread so far and the only problem I noticed is, the inside of it seems a little dry, stale like texture and it separates sometimes while eating. Not sure why that happens. But this is all AP flour as I never used gluten before.

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the replies.

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

I read over your question

<i>Also if I were to substitute protein from water, or milk, how does it work? Is it 1 to 1 g to ml? So addign 100g protein, you subtract 100ml water/milk?</i>

a few times, and I think some clarification is in order. I'm not talking about adding whey powder at all; I'm talking about adding more protein by replacing water with a higher-protein liquid, such as milk, eggs, yogurt, or soft/fresh cheese, or some combination of those things. The easiest way to do this by finding a recipe that already uses these ingredients since such doughs are often handled differently than unenriched doughs.

For example, if you were to try making baguettes with all milk in place of the water, they would darken in the oven a lot faster. Adding any of the other things I mentioned would probably change things even more, so it seems better to find recipes that use them already.

As for the naan, it looks like it came out pretty well. If the inside seemed dry, it might have been a little over-baked. Next time, try baking it for a little less time or using slightly thicker pieces of dough.

As for the separation, how did it separate? Do you mean that it was crumbling into pieces? It looks well enough formed to me. Do you mean it had space between the two sides of of the dough like a pita? Because that's normal and even desirable for a number of flatbreads.

Also, 

<i>this is all AP flour as I never used gluten before</i>

If you're using any kind of wheat flour, you're using some amount of gluten.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot for replying, all this stuff really clears my questions. I didn't know replacing water with milk would darken the bread. All I noticed back in the day for a bread machine bread baked in the same machine was with water the bread was softer like cotton in texture but with milk it seemed more like cake texture if that makes sense.

Also for baking I use 7 out of 9 on the counter owen scale for the pan. Is this too much? I just thought the pan should be really hot to make it fast and quick. I guess I will lower this and use less time also like you said.

As for separation I will try to take a pic after making one today from my already made dough. But first off when I take it out of the pan, it seems a little more brittle and it cracks on some places, though minor. But when I cut the round bread into 4 pieces, some pieces come apart so you can basically almost stuff inside these pieces. But for indian store naan breads I didn't see this sort of separation.

I will read up on enriched breads like you said, never heard of it before.

rollo's picture
rollo

Hi again, I took a picture of a bread made using the same dough I have. As you can see it split by itself perfectly without me doing anything. It's a bit dry. I am not an expert but I assume using water instead of milk should help? Also from what I read here, I imagine using VWG will help when I use it instead of adding more AP flour like I did.

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

Generally, adding enrichments such as milk will help keep things softer. Using a little more liquid or giving the dough an autolyse or more resting time might help hydrate the starches. But I think reducing the cooking time would be the easiest fix. Since naan is supposed to be cooked at a very high heat, I'd recommend the reduced time or increased dough thickness before reducing the temperature.

I don't think vital wheat gluten will really help, either. It will make your dough chewier and the increased protein bonding seems likely to trap in more air/steam, which is what's causing the pockets in your bread. This is how pita gets those pockets, actually. Steam builds up rapidly in the baking bread, unable to escape, and cooks the dough from the inside. 

I'm not sure how to tell you to avoid that, though, since it's usually something I'm trying to get more of, not less.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot Adrian you rock :) I totally agree with you to eat a quality bread and carb content is not a problem for me, but a good amount of protein for the calorie amount would be great.

If you don't mind I have some questions?

1. What's the difference between vital wheat gluten vs gluten powder that you used?

2. Why did you add Whole Einkorn wheat? I actually never heard of this one.

3. I am surprised you compensated adding protein powder by adding more water. I had to add more AP flour. But if you add some gluten, then is it much stronger than AP flour to keep the dough together? If I just use the same ingredients as a normal recipe and add say 100g protein for a 500g flour bread, the dough was sticking to the sides and didn't have any structure to it. Touching it was very sticky.

4. Can one use say 50% gluten flour and 50% AP flour and add say 100g protein to a recipe for say 400-500g flour?

5. I have never seen gluten flour before and I am in canada so will it look something like this?

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2002/Aug/14/taste15_b.jpg

Thanks alot for your reply, it helped me immensely, and your bread looks super awesome.

adri's picture
adri

1. The difference between VWG and what I used is mostly the name, as I live in a non english speaking country. From what I've seen in your picture it is the same.

2. Because I had it in my drawer. ;) I like the taste and it already has a (very) little bit more protein. You can use whatever wheat you like.

3. Without the glue (gluten), of course you it would be too much water. But with less water it would become a brick. If you add gluten, you'll see you get more structure.

4. 50% is way too much. I estimated the amount of gluten as parts of the protein powder. The next time I will add a bit more (about 20% of the protein powder).

The bread also doesn't taste too bad. Unfortunately the protein powder had an artificial vanilla taste that is now predominant in the bread. I'll try again the day after tomorrow with neutral flavour protein powder. It was on sale when I passed by the drugstore today; I had to take it. :D

Thanks for the inspiration!

Adrian

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot Adrian. Your replies helped me. I will reply your messages separately. But for unflavoured protein, I would recommend NOW whey isolate unflavoured protein powder:
http://ca.bodybuilding.com/store/now/whey.html?_requestid=300702

I am not an expert on unflavoured proteins as I use flavoured for normal shakes but this one is surprisingly good. It has no taste at all in the bread. It's a bit expensive but seems very high quality. I didn't know there were unflavoured casein proteins as I found later from another site but normally I prefer casein over whey for the feeling of fullness. But bioavailability wise whey is king of course.

Also does it matte if you add protein powder over the liquid vs flour first and then protein? I noticed when I first made a bread the first spoons of whey protein immediately dissolved in milk. But now when I added it on top, it seemed like it formed a thicker layer. Not sure if these make any difference.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

As Adrian said, there is protein in bread known as gluten, that holds the bread together, and in the US, you can buy Vital Wheat Gluten to subsidize the amount in your flour for better bread. I think you should give his recipe a try, but there is another, possibly simpler way that might work for any recipe you wish to use. For any amount of protein powder you use, instead of adding more regular flour, just add a bit of VWG. You may have to experiment with the amounts, but it seems to me that you can make a "protein mix" to substitute 1:1 for flour. For each 125g of flour you take out, replace with 100g of your protein powder, and 25g of VWG. That would give your "protein mix" a gluten percentage just a bit over 13%, which is in the ideal range for bread. As for replacing starch (to feed the yeast), I can't imagine that being too much of a problem as long as you don't replace too much of the total flour in the recipe with the protein mix. In fact, I suspect even greater than 50% would be okay, but I've never tried it, so I don't really know. Maybe you can report back if you decide to try it.

edit: just saw your new post. If you're using AP flour, your results may not be too good. You can either change to bread flour, or add even more VWG to your mix, so that the total gluten content of your dough is high enough to hold your bread together.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot David. Your ratio seems easy to use. I will give it a try. So gluten is a lot "stronger" than AP flour, right? Since you are able to get the structure of the bread back by adding some of it. If that's the case, out of curiosity, what would happen if you use only gluten flour in your bread?

So lets forget about whey for simplicity and instead of using say 400g of AP flour, you use 100g of gluten and everything else being the same, you would still get some sort of bread?

This might be a stupid question but I am just curious so I can imagine the extremes :)

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

rollo,

Gluten is what holds bread together. All wheat has gluten in it. Some flour has higher amounts of gluten and some lower. AP flour usually has anywhere from 9 to 11 percent gluten by weight. Bread flour is generally 11 to 14 percent gluten by weight. There are "high gluten" flours that are used by some people for making pizza, and also are used for Chinese noodles. Then there is Gluten Flour, otherwise known as Vital Wheat Gluten. This is actually an extract. There is a process in which the flour is hydrated and gluten is allowed to develop, then the lump is washed to get rid of the starches, leaving almost nothing but the proteins, of which most are the gluten. Pure VWG will not make bread. It will make meat. Look up "mock duck" and you will see what I mean.

You need some starch to make bread. As Adrian said, the yeast need something to eat, but there is more than that. The starch gives the bread a softer texture, while the gluten gives the bread its architectural strength and a chewy texture. Getting the right balance is usually considered to be pretty important. But, you can substitute some of the starch with protein by replacing some of the regular flour with a combination of your protein powder and some VWG. The VWG I buy is 8g of gluten in every 12g of VWG. That is a gluten percentage of 66.66%, which is enough to make meat, and way too much to make bread. If you mix 100g pure starch with 25g VWG, you would end up with 13.33% total gluten, in the ideal range for bread. What I was saying before is that you could take out 125g flour from your recipe, and replace it with a mix of 100g protein powder and 25g VWG to keep the total gluten content in the ideal range, even though you are replacing the starch with protein.

If you're really curious and willing to experiment a little, try making bread with 300g protein powder, 75g VWG, and 125g of your AP flour. Mix all that with 300g water and let it sit for about 30 minutes, then mix in some yeast and knead it just a couple minutes to get all the yeast mixed in. Let it rise until doubled, then punch it down and shape it into your loaf. Let it rise again until doubled, then bake it. You will see probably in the first rise, but at least during the second, whether 125g of flour is enough food for the yeast (if it rises properly, yea, if it doesn't rise, then you need more of the dough to be starch).

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Yeast doesn't actually eat starch. They eat sugars. Yeast sold in stores is optimized to break down the starch in flour into the sugars that they like to eat. However, you can feed them sugar directly by adding some into the loaf. You can use a little bit of white, brown, or raw sugar, or some honey, agave nectar, or corn syrup, etc. Honey is a great source because it is liquid, so it helps to hydrate the dough a little, it has more sugar in it than table sugar, if you can imagine that, and the yeast love it! Try putting a tablespoon of honey in the recipe I just made up, and you will probably not have to worry at all about the yeast going hungry! Oh, and if you want the bread to be a little softer, you can add a tablespoon of oil. Add the honey and oil at the same time you add the yeast.

Have fun!

adri's picture
adri

You summarized it very well!

For short fermentation periods, adding honey/sugar will work well. For longer fermentation I'm not sure it will work. There might be too much food in the beginning and too little at the end. But for the beginning, short fermentation times are perfectly fine.

My gluten powder seems to be more pure than yours. Well it was quite expensive, but the only one I could find locally. I'd prefer one at half price where I had to take a view % more ;)

As you mentioned hydration: Hydration seems to be a tricky part as well. I really prefer casein as protein as it gives me the sensation of having eaten more and it has a better taste. But it is much more water-binding than other protein powder that again is more water-binding than wheat flour. My second batch of baguettes I baked today had a hydration of 82%. And while handling the dough it felt like way below 60%.

Résumé: Bread with casein based "flavourless" protein powder really tastes good. Better as soy/whey based vanilla flavoured powder; almost reaching "supermarket-bread quality" but not "self-made sourdough quality" in taste. It needs much more water and will get dry soon.

Adrian

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Thanks for the update. So, I guess if anyone wanted to try the experiment I mentioned above, it needs to have 400g water versus the 300g water I suggested. And a little oil is almost a necessity, not just to keep the bread soft, but to keep it from being too dry. It may even need a bit more than the Tbsp I suggested.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot. Where did you get unflavoured casein? I also prefer 100% casein for my shakes and I only found truetein's website selling proteins of any kind including casein with or without flavor. I haven't tried them though. I know casein digests a lot slower than whey and gives me a fuller feeling.

How do you measure hydration? Is it simply liquid/dry weight?

Cheers.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

rollo,

Hydration is the percentage ratio of total water (including the water in milk, honey, and other ingredients) compared to the total flour (I think we'd include your protein powder, and certainly the VWG) and is divided water/flour. For example, in the first iteration of the recipe I made up above, there was a total of 300g of water and the mix of flour/protein powder/VWG came to 500g. Dividing 300/500, we get 0.6, expressed as 60% hydration. Bringing the water up to 400g makes it 80% hydration. Most flours work well in the 60 to 65 percent range, but protein and fiber are two things that seem to absorb more water, so need to be given a higher hydration to compensate. I had forgotten about that, and Adrian thankfully reminded me with his post.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks David appreciate your reply. It's clearer now. Btw do you know any good ingredients to bump the fiber content in bread without making it taste too much different?

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Well, fiber takes up space, and adds weight. So, adding fiber means the overall protein content will be lower by that amount. But, you can just use Whole Wheat flour in place of the AP or Bread flour you would have used. Or, you could add something else that has fiber in it, like oats or bean flour. Or, you could go straight to the source, and get some cellulose powder. Cellulose powder is pure fiber.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot David, you know this stuff great :) Yes I wasn't plan to add much if at all. Because I thought it would be good to have some fiber in the bread, but not too much.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot David, I understand it alot better now. You said "There are "high gluten" flours that are used by some people for making pizza.". Is that because they want the pizza dough to stretch without punching a hole or losing its shape?

I will first try 200g protein and then if it works 300g :)

After doing some research yesterday though, I also found soy flour having a ton of protein. Do you think it would work if you used soy flour instead of AP, and the other half to use VWG and whey isolate protein? Seems like it would allow me to reach 400g of protein which even most high protein food couldn't compete.

Not sure if there are other high protein regular flours like soy flour? How come soy can get away with having that much protein while still being a flour but regular AP can't? I am puzzled.

adri's picture
adri

About soy flour: It doesn't have gluten like wheat and less starch. I woudn't see it on the side of the flour but as a form of protein powder.

About Pizza: The Italian pizza acutally is made with a flour that is quite low in gluten. High gluten flour is more used in New York style pizza. The more gluten makes the pizza dough much easier to toss, you are right (it also might pull back more). But mostly it makes the pizza crust more crisp and stronger.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

rollo,

A lot of things are called flour because of the way they are milled into a fine powder. Unless they contain starch and gluten, they will require some help in making bread. I don't know if soy flour contains starch or not, but it doesn't contain gluten. We can add gluten, in the form of VWG, but we need to have some starch too. I've never yet experimented with just how little starch one can get away with, but I think it can be quite low, as long as the yeast still has something to eat and the texture of the bread can be made soft without falling into disrepair!

AP has the amount of protein that it has, because of the wheat that is milled to make it. AP flour is very appropriate for some things. In fact, there are wheat flours with even less gluten, like cake flour. Sometimes gluten can be a detractor from the texture you are trying to achieve. Cakes, cookies, pastries, and "Southern US" biscuits all rely on having as little gluten development as possible, so a lower gluten flour helps achieve the desired results. AP flour in the Southern states is even milled to have less gluten than AP in the Northern states, which in some cases borders on Bread flour. they do this so that their biscuits can be lighter and softer. Gluten makes stuff heavier and chewier. And yes, pizza is made with high gluten flour so that it can be stretched and shaped, especially when it is being stretched into a thin crust, which needs extra strength to hold together. I use bread flour for my pizza, and sometimes even AP, but mine is a thicker crust and more like bread than a rubber tire.

If you want to experiment with a 100% protein bread, really there's nothing to it but to do it. You will soon find out for yourself if you like it that way, and why you do or don't. At the worst, it will be vegetarian jerky, which can probably still be good if you season it right! Mix in some kind of sugar, maybe honey because it is liquid, and some oil to help make the bread soft. You may be the one that makes it work, simply because nobody else thought to try it! Every invention was invented by someone! Try it and tell us how it goes!

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot guys. I understand it better now. I thought soy flour was for bread because I saw it on a site discussing high protein flours, but didn't know flour is not specific to breads.

So the reason for using as little gluten as possible for most food items out there is because of softness and lightness? Is it also related to making it as cheap as possible? Not knowing about gluten I just thought companies tried to reduce the protein content as much as possible to make it cheaper.

I will definitely experiment when I finish my current dough. I can't wait to try all these things.

But when you said as long as yeast has something to eat, then theoretically can you say add just sugar so yeast eats that and then maybe somehow strip the sugar? I am just curious if you could add something, yeast eats it, but the bread still tastes sweet, right? Is it the left over?

Either way can you have something that you add and then because of yeast is totally consumed but help make the bread?

Lastly where can I learn the sort of info where it says, adding oil makes it softer, and adding milk makes it like this and adding yogurt makes it like that, etc? If I knew more about what they do to a bread, then I would make more educated guesses when adjusting things.

I will still ask here for feedback anyway so that's very helpful for me :)

 

Thanks guys.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

yogurt whey or the whey from cheese making for the liquid too.  Lots of extra protein there that goes to waste if not used to make ricotta or bread.  VWG is not the same and Protein Isolate which is usually made from soy or whey - a no gluten protein.  I'm with DavidED.  You can add Soy Protein isolate that won't add gluten, then add some VWG to make up for the gluten missing in the Soy or Whey Protein Isolate and then use whey for the liquid.   That way you don't have to add so much Protein Isolate or VWG which will make the bred more like bread and still the protein you want,

A super protein packed bread that will taste and look like bread especially if made with sourdough which is what would do.  You could probably start a business making this bread just for lifters.

As an example if you use 400 g of whey for the liquid in the bread that will have about 30-40 g of protein in it .  You can cut back your 100 g of whey isolate to say 60-70 g and then add 5 times less that if VWG  (if your VWG is 55% Gluten) or 12 -14 g of VWG.

Thr bread will have the same amount of protein but act  and taste more like bread.

Happy Protein Bread Baking  

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot for replying. That's also what I thought at first to basically cram as much protein into milk beforehand by mixing so that I could have a much higher protein liquid. After adding 100g (my first high protein bread), it became thicker and I was also heating it which sort of made this weird long shapes inside the milk formed by the whey powder. The end result wasn't bad anyway.

Also you said it will taste like bread especially if it's made from sourdough. How do you turn a normal dough sour? This might be a stupid question but I only ate store bought sourdough never made myself. I like the texture and softness of sourdough.

So if I can actually make a bread that has the same texture and softness of sourdough but is not sour, that would be golden. I just don't like the store bought breads here (baton, baguette) which seem too hard, crusty. I want it to be soft and cotton like texture if that makes sense.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

sourdough starter,  One can be made easily by searching this site (using the search box upper right) Debra Wink's Pineapple Juice method, Joe Ortiz's Cumin milk and  whole wheat method or just mixing a whole grain with water  and t  tsp of orange juice for 3.  You should have a culture strong enough to make bread in 2 weeks and it should be fairly mature and good as it will get in a month

adri's picture
adri

sourdough starter,  One can be made easily by searching this site (using the search box upper right) Debra Wink's Pineapple Juice method, Joe Ortiz's Cumin milk and  whole wheat method or just mixing a whole grain with water  and t  tsp of orange juice for 3.  You should have a culture strong enough to make bread in 2 weeks and it should be fairly mature and good as it will get in a month

... This is, what you wrote wanted to post, but the system didn't put it in the right place :D

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks I didn't see the reply, sorry.

Oh wow I didn't know sourdough was that hard. But being a bread noob, is it possible to make a bread just like sourdough but not sour? The reason I ask is, when you are in the store, you see these baton, baguette breads and they are generally very crisp, "rough in the mouth", but sourdough is soft, almost cotton like texture, particularly inside. It can't be just because it's sour, right? I assume they also do it quite differently.

In this case I am not sure if you will still have to have a 2-4 week culture?

adri's picture
adri

You can add Soy Protein isolate that won't add gluten, then add some VWG to make up for the gluten missing in the Soy or Whey Protein Isolate

That's what I did, and it worked fine.

and then use whey for the liquid.   That way you don't have to add so much Protein Isolate or VWG which will make the bred more like bread and still the protein you want,

Well, this is just another way to obtain the whey protein: Use whey directly ;) But it doesn't make this thing easier or the result more like bread. You have to use more whey liquid than water, as the diluted solids don't give you hydration. For the maths you have to split it anyway, complicating things. If you have access to whey liquid, if you produce your own cheese e.g., that usually would go down the sink, it is cheaper. That's all.

Another thing about gluten and wheat protein: The biological value is very low so it usually doesn't count. But the combination with the proteins from milk (whey protein and casein) can boost the biological value above the values of each individual component.

rollo's picture
rollo

That was my guess as well in regards to solving whey in a liquid vs using whey liquid directly. Do you think it's better to use water instead of milk? Milk seems like a better choice since it has protein but the added fat, etc makes the milk thicker than water + same amount of "pure" whey. My whey has 25g of protein per 28g.

Does using milk vs water have an effect on the final texture of the bread? If so, I will use water next time :)

Also didn't know gluten wasn't complete protein. Will have to read up on this.

MisterTT's picture
MisterTT

an experiment, but what is it really for? I can't imagine that the bread would not taste "off", though in fairness I've not tried it. What should the finished product be called?

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

I think the title of this post is a good enough name for this bread. Yeah, the flavor may not be for everyone, but I think it can be made to appeal to most, especially those who are in it for the protein. I don't know how much and what kind of flavor the protein powder has of itself (the one Adrian used had flavor added). But, just like rye, or whole wheat, or some of the other stuff we use for making bread, there is usually a balance that can be found that works rather well. People around here put lots of strange ingredients in bread, and it turns out perfectly edible, and sometimes quite delicious!

rollo's picture
rollo

It's to basically eat bread as part of your diet and still get good amount of protein. Normally one can argue you can drink a shake instead and that would work too, except some people don't prefer shakes but rather food itself.

Either way though if you are consuming relatively higher amounts of protein than the average population say 250g, particularly on low calorie (2000 calorie for instance), then it becomes hard to hit your protein intake.

But if the bread you eat has just as much or comparable protein as the food you are eating (eggs, turkey luncheon, tuna, cheese, etc), then it becomes very easy and convenient to hit your goal macros. Otherwise I am not trying to remove carb or anything but rather have a good amount of protein per unit/serving.

rollo's picture
rollo

Also a few other questions occured to me after reading these:

1. Can you make a bread using only yogurt for the liquid part? I thought the yogurt would be thick but is there a bread that only use yogurt instead of water or milk or any combination?

2. I found the vital wheat gluten flour (rd mill), but it was in the natural section of the store. The regular flour section didn't have anything other than AP flour. It's a big store. Is this a specialty item that's sold in smaller amounts (623g) unlike AP flour which even have 10kg packages.

3. I couldn't find diastatic malt. Is this also a specialty item? If so, where do you guys buy it?

4. Also pure curiosity as I asked above (maybe not very visible), what would happen if you make a bread 100% from gluten flour instead of AP flour? Say instead of using 400g flour, using 100g gluten. I just want to visualize the extremes :)

Thanks all, I am glad I asked here, because I couldn't find much info about "ultra high protein breads" :)

rollo's picture
rollo

Also somehow I had this negative impression for gluten after seeing "gluten free" wherever I go. I don't have issues with it and it seems very few people do, so not sure why they blow up "gluten free" products like it's a bad thing?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is to add a whole grain berry scald or sprouts to the dough mix.   

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot, is it called whole grain berry scald? Because I get few results and google suggests salad :) I saw the pics and I think I ate that before. Is it like 6g protein per 40g? That's not bad for an extra addition for sure :)

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Has anyone here tried incorporating powdered peanut butter into a bread dough? PPB has had most of the fat removed so is kinda pasty-floury and pretty high in protein; probably tatses a lot better than soy. Have seen pancake recipes listing it, so might be good in naan. Imagine it would even be okay to mix regular peanut butter into dough/batters calling for oil, which then could be eliminated from the recipe or at least greatly reduced. 

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks that was also what I was looking into yesterday. Is the PPB PB2? Or are there others? I never saw one myself but I heard of PB2. But there must be more.

If it could be added into bread, it would be pretty interesting to see.

andychrist's picture
andychrist

If you are sticking to that naan recipe, you'd probably be better off just replacing its two tablespoons of vegetable oil with a generous four tbs of regular, natural peanut butter — its fat is arguably tastier and more beneficial than canola. Simplifies things as well, what with one ingredient instead of two. A pinch of VWG and a bit higher hydration would help compensate for the ounce of solids in the two oz of PB.

Have fun experimenting, rollo!

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks alot man. I never use canola but olive oil but peanut butter is interesting. Hmm actually I never came across them but I have to search for them next time I am in the grocery store.

Though right now I don't have PB at home, because I normally prefer hazelnut butter :) Its taste is remarkable IMO. Though this particular one I have right now has some sugar. I imagine that would also make an interesting addition though.

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

Hazelnut naan sounds delicious. You should try it and report back. :)

rollo's picture
rollo

Will do. Although if I use the hazelnut butter I am talking about, I would have to make a sweet bread that's probably the softer non-flat bread because it's pretty sweet. It's this one:

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Not too familiar with the product myself, only heard about it on a cycling forum, BROL. But a quick search shows PB2 as just one among other powdered peanut butters. 

Okay, found the link on BROL to this site, which discusses the various brands and prices (looks like Trader Joe's come out on top, though I couldn't find it at my local affiliate) :

http://www.dailygarnish.com/2010/09/powdered-peanut-butter-a-review-taste-test.html

adri's picture
adri

This is the 3rd version of HIGH PROTEIN BAGUETTES:

As I changed the protein powder to one with high casein, I needed to adjust the hydration to more than 96%. I also added more gluten, as it actually rises the biological value of my type of powder


My formula:

  • 110g Protein Powder (60% Casein, 36% Soy, Whey, ... and things like emulsifiers)
  • 25g Gluten Powder
  • 21g Whole Einkorn wheat
  • 120g All Purpose wheat
  • 5g Salt
  • 3g diastatic malt
  • 2g sunflower lecitine
  • 4g yeast
  • 275g water


Some numbers:
Flour+Protein: 276g
Hydration: 267g/276g = 96.7%

Bread weight after baking: 490g

Calories: (392*1.10 + 377*0.25 + 348*0.21 + 336*1.20)= 1001.73
Protein: (89.0*1.10 + 80*0.25 + 15*0.21 + 11.8*1.20)= 135.21
Carbs: (3*1.10 + 12*0.25 + 58*0.21 + 68.1*1.20)= 100,2

Protein/Carbs-Ratio: 1.35 !!! (My AP-flour has just a ratio of 0.17)

53% of the calories come from protein.

The only thing that really bothers me. The bread costs me 7,55€ for the kg. This is $4.68/lb.

rollo's picture
rollo

Wow you rock :) That was my thought as well regarding price. Normally home made breads should be cheaper but because of ultra high protein the price is off the hook :)

Not that it matters to me though because I want the best food I can afford within reason.

Just curious though why did you add soy and whey? I thought you would only use casein or whey. I used blends for shakes but I like casein more. Also how does soy change the taste? Since it's now cleared that soy flour is not flour, I won't use it anyway though.

In my last dough that I am still using, it was less than 1.4kg. So I only had 12% protein :( Yours is 27% if I am not wrong? That's more than twice.

You set a new record :)

Next time I hope to reach ultra level now that I know about gluten.

adri's picture
adri

I used soy, as it was a multi component powder with casein as main ingredient. It's unflavoured. In this combination the biological value is higher - and soy is cheaper for the producer.

I wouldn't count "protein per total weight" but "protein per calories".

You don't do this with shakes either. If you are thirsty the shake is too sweet, you can easily add more water to a shake and it stays the same shake. A dryer bread does have more protein per total weight (and also more calories per total weight); but it is just harder to eat.

rollo's picture
rollo

You are right, I didn't think of that. I normally count protein by calories in regular food. With bread I wasn't sure. I guess my thinking was since I am using dough and from the dough I grab a fixed amount say 200g and eat that, I was required to calculate how many calories, protein was in that when tracking my macros.

So basically your bread is 53% protein? If so, that's remarkable :)

rollo's picture
rollo

Btw Adrian, when you mix your ingredients how does it look? When I mix mine using bread machine, the consistency is almost like this, not super runny but has no shape:

 

Is this normal? I thought when you add gluten it would help with the structure, but maybe it happens after the rising begins?

adri's picture
adri

Could you post your formula?This looks way too wet, more like batter than dough. Even without any gluten it shouldn't look like this (at least before fermentation).

Adrian

rollo's picture
rollo

Hi Adrian,

My formula was this if I remember it correctly:

200g AP flour

50g VWG flour

200g whey isolate protein

300ml water

1-1.5 tbsp yogurt

2 tsp active yeast

 

Next time I will use your formula so I have something more predictable and tested. Can you please take a photo of the dough after it's mixed but before rising and then 1 after it's rised? If you make the same bread of course. Because when I look at my bread machine mixing the ingredients, I am not sure what to expect. But if I had a picture of it after it's mixed, then I can judge the consistency better.

Also does it matter if you put say protein over water first, vs AP flours over water first?

Thanks again, I think your bread will work a lot better for me for a while if I can make it :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

might be making it runny.  I don't know how much water protein powder absorbs... what happens when you mix 10g of it with 5g water?

rollo's picture
rollo

I mixed 100g with 250ml of milk and it became much thicker. But I was slighly heating it so it formed long "sections" inside. It also had some baking powder though I think that changed things.

With 300ml water and 200g protein, if I remember correctly, the water only seemed to absorb some of it. But I didn't mix it. In the final dough though I could see some pieces which I assume to be protein and not flour.

adri's picture
adri

Sorry, I have no photos of the dough and no intent baking again in the next 2 weeks or so. I already have enough bread in storage from the bakes to get to the formula. And also there is a lot of other types of bread to bake... (Actually I'm not doing much sports at the moment. My Ultimate team is thriving but I'm sitting on the sideline operating on my injured foot. And I'm not that much into lifting. It has to be done, when not gettign much else physical activity, but... well for once a week, no extra protein is needed.)

One thing though: Whey does not seem to absorb much water, casein does. With whey, my formula might not work :(

rollo's picture
rollo

Np I understand. Sorry to hear about your injury. Hope you can recover. I would recommend taking this:

http://ca.bodybuilding.com/store/now/gcm.html?mcid=GGL_CA_Products-Products_NOW_Glucosamine_Chondroitin_with_MSM

If your new formula may not work for whey, can I use your old formula?

  • 111g Protein Powder (Formula90-type)
  • 14g Gluten Powder
  • 21g Whole Einkorn wheat
  • 120g All Purpose wheat
  • 5g Salt
  • 3g diastatic malt
  • 4g yeast
  • 205g water

I will have to use 141g AP flour if that's ok? Because I don't have einkorn. Also how you weigh yeast? My scale seems off in gram to gram, as it's not that precise. So if I pour gram to gram, it doesn't register correct values. Do you have a more sensitive smaller scale for this kind of stuff as well? Just curious.

Later if you make these breads though, I would appreciate a pic. I think I have good enough bread for 2 weeks too :)

adri's picture
adri

There are 2 ways:

1st: Use a measuring spoon and shovel maybe 50 Lovin' Spoonfuls in a bowl and wheight the sum. Than you know how much one spoon will be.

2nd: Take more, dissolve it in water; use just a part of it.

The 2nd approach I would just use with pizza, where people use as little as 0.016% for warm 48h fermentation. For 2 Pizzas you might need just 0.05g of instant yeast. Without diluting this would be impossible. 4g is a lot compared to this -> I'd use 1st approach.

rollo's picture
rollo

Thanks Adrian, that's pretty smart :)

embth's picture
embth

Just wondering if anyone has used hemp protein powder in bread.  Red Mill sells it….it is dark in color.   

rollo's picture
rollo

That's interesting never tried that but I know some supplement companies also sell it.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the whole seed.  I love the nutty flavour hemp seeds impart.  I usually add about 80g seeds to a loaf.  Using them ground would result in less "crunch" in the crumb.  Some like the crunch in the bread from whole seeds.  Hemp hearts are soft and would be much like the flour.  Flour has to be figured into the total flour and would be gluten free.

Chia and Amaranth also add protein.  Chia having almost no flavour and Amaranth unique.  When I think high protein loaf, I think meatloaf.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

Yeah, if you read some of the posts above, you can see we were close to forming a vegetarian meatloaf at times in this thread, rather than anything that would resemble bread.

adri's picture
adri

rollo's picture
rollo

Hey Adrian, that looks great. It looks soft, is it? I like softer breads more.

adri's picture
adri

Yes, it is quite soft, indeed.