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Thin crispy flaky crust

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bobku's picture
bobku

Thin crispy flaky crust

I have read a lot of post and tried different things to get this kind of crust. " NY style hard roll " flaky crispy crust. Does anyone know of anything that works? I think I am going to try brushing rolls with lard ( high quality home rendered leaf lard} and baking at a high temperature. Not sure if this would have he opposite effect. Any suggestions?

 

 

ccsdg's picture
ccsdg

No idea what roll this is, but  if you mean like a flaky pie crust, add a solid fat and have it not entirely all mixed in (ie do a few stretch and folds instead of intensive kneading). This would be to the dough not just brushed on top. I accidentally achieved the flaky crust effect the other night.

bobku's picture
bobku

I usually do stretch and fold instead of kneading. What percentage of fat did you use ?

KMIAA's picture
KMIAA

New York Hard Roll!  Haven't achieved the "shattering crust" that they were known for.  Bite into the hard roll and the curst shatters all over.  That is what the flaky crust that bobku wants to achieve.  I haven't achieved it as of this date.

ccsdg's picture
ccsdg

Oh, i see. That's not at all what I thought he meant... i was thinking more like flaky pastry - soft and shreddy flakes. thanks for clarifying!

bobku's picture
bobku

Very frustrating, there must be someone out there who worked at a bakery or is an old school baker who has made these type rolls in the past.

 

BobS's picture
BobS
DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

I just followed that link and read all the way through. Now, I'm gonna have to make some hard rolls, or I shall never be satisfied!

andychrist's picture
andychrist

The Kaiser is but one of several styles of hard roll found here in NYC. There is also a largish round onion roll with kind of a lumpy top as well as a smoother, plain round one that may or may not be seeded, neither of which have the distinctive Kaiser twist. Traditionally, they are all sold stale and flavorless in supermarkets and corner delis.

bobku's picture
bobku

Thanks BobS,  I'm going to try that recipe, however the only thing that's different from other recipes I've tried is the use of hi gluten flour. I can get that flour and have used it to make bagels, it's worth a try. I also think it's more technique than the recipe. I usually bake them at 500 with steam remove steam source after 10 minutes and finish baking until they are done testing by color {light brown) and I'll slightly squeeze the roll in the oven to feel if it's crispy. If anyone else has some sucess please post to let us all know. Thanks

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

flours and they have a wonderful flavour, don't call them high gluten though, I use the 10% protein flour.  To me the recipe has to use egg white in the liquids, active barley malt, no oil or added sugar, 1.8% salt.  Good gluten development.   I dip mine in whole milk to make seeds stick.  I use 8-10 min steam guide, might want to release the steam sooner and see if that helps.  Stand back, Remove steam pan and open the door wide!  I use a low hydration dough (stiff 50% hydration) risen under a wet wrung out dish towel.  

Cool on rack and don't bag, Like baguettes they stale quickly.  Can toast or toss back into a hot oven to re-crisp crust. My toaster in Austria has a little rack above it for just such a purpose.  A toaster or mini oven would also help if the cooling softened the crust.  (also try reducing the hydration of the dough for less moisture movement to the crust)

bobku's picture
bobku

Can you post recipe.   50% hyd. Made with 10% protein flour, How much egg white, I have Diastatic malt powder is that ok how much ?.

That flour is awfuly low protien?  isn't that almost cake flour ? Totally opposite of what I would think

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/269981#comment-269981

hydration closer to 60% due to flour absorbency.  I start with 50% and add if needed.  I usually drop the egg into an empty container on the scale and then add water to correct amount.  I see I did add some olive oil.  I was too lazy to shape rolls and so made a loaf.  

I've picked up some of the red caputo flour today.  Curious to see how this compares. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just for you (and DH) Same recipe as linked above using red Caputo "The Chef's Flour" (30g lists 3g protein)  That would be a 60% hydration dough, note, no added sugar other than the malt.  

based on Vienna Dough recipe  

Poolish: (6 hrs 23°C, 74°F or overnight and then placed in fridge until mixing)

  • 200g soft wheat flour
  • 200g standing tap water 23°C 
  • pinch rapid rise yeast

Dough

Wet: 

  • one egg white (about 36g)  
  • add enough water to egg white to get 100g (64g)  

Dry: blend

  • 300g soft wheat flour
  • 5g diastatic malt 
  • 1g rapid rise yeast (or up to 2g of instant yeast)

 

  • late addition (after 30 min) 6g salt  (up to 1.8% or 9g salt)

 

Optional: 

  • up to 2 teaspoons olive oil added after flour is hydrated.

Mix poolish with the wet to blend and add flour/malt/yeast to moisten flour, add water as needed to moisten dry flour one tablespoon at a time lightly kneading only to mix.  Rest 30 to 45 min and flatten out dough to add salt.  Roll up and knead smooth.  

Rise dough to double, quickly divide dough into 8, 101g pieces shape into round rolls, rest briefly and then flatten to rest and shape into Kaisers or simple rolls.  Rest shaped Kaisers upside down for about 50% rise (to keep them shaped) and turn over for rest of rise.  I tend to flatten about 4 round rolls and then go back to fold one and flatten another until I get through them all.  The rests relax the dough during the shaping steps.  I use a trace amount of rye flour on bench after rounds are shaped to keep folds from closing.

I tend to toss the egg yolk into the scrambled eggs or omelette used to fill the sandwich or add to an egg drop soup or freeze.

When ready to bake, heat up the oven to 240°C with steam pan.  When steam pan is boiling and rolls are risen enough, bake.  Remove steam pan at about 8 minutes and vent oven.  Depending on your oven you may want to raise the temp just before venting the oven so that the temp drop is not too extreme.  Then lower the heat after venting to about 220°C to finish off rolls.

Try it, Bob and see how it compares to what you've been doing.

 

bobku's picture
bobku

What percent protein is considered a soft wheat flour?

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

content doesn't always tell you the gluten content (part of the protein) but I find AP wheat flours work fine.  I suspect the protein content on my Caputo bag has been rounded (down) when using the serving size values and that the proteins I'm looking for are higher than in most soft wheat flour.  Closer to 11%.  Also, I'm dropping egg white into the recipe, more protein, so there is some added protein bonding going on in the dough that I can't fully describe but works well with soft flour.  

Soft wheats are considered low gluten flours, 8 to 10% protein.  The only reason to raise to a hard flour would be if the recipe changed to a sourdough formula.  Hard rolls are not like bagels inside; dense sink to the bottom of your gut type of bread; but more like a baguette.  A good baguette/French stick recipe makes a good hard roll and vice versa. 

I purchased Robin Hood AP but I haven't figured, taken the time to bring desired flavours out of the flour.  Very disappointed to say the least, and have returned to the Caputo flours.   I've also noticed a recent slight improvement in the local baguettes, I will ask "FF" what has changed.  Their scoring still leaves much to be desired but the dough is closer to hard rolls now, texture and flavour wise.  

The sun is out and so is my poolish from the fridge.  Got one cup of coffee down and so...  looks like a good day to bake hard rolls.  :)    

bobku's picture
bobku

does this recipe lend it's self to stretch and fold, which most of my breads are, or am I better off kneading or doing a slap an fold

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

dough, just on the border line to being too stiff.  

You can also skip the poolish and just mix up the dough.  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Yesterday... well, today is a new day.  

Decided to use 200g Robin Hood AP with 300g Red Caputo (500g total flour)

with 330g water  (plus a little less malt and 7g yeast) and autolyse that 30 min before adding salt.  Going for the straight dough today.  Oops, forgot the egg white.  (Guess I'll have to make this again tomorrow.)  But I don't think that will hurt any because yesterday's dough was so tough, as in hard to stretch too much gluten tough.  We will see.  

Although yesterday's rolls were dense, the crusts came out just fine.  So I don't think the recipe is soooo important other than it is low hydration and lots but not too long steam in the oven.  Oven was pre-heated to 440°F and stayed there.  Steam was 8 min.

The rolls came out of the oven crispy, softened in about 20 minutes but then leaving them on the rack for another hour or two dried the crusts back to crispy.  

In Austria, the rolls are sold in nets, just like oranges.  To keep them from drying out too much overnight, they are popped into a paper bag or tossed into a bread box or freezer to be crisped (re warmed) the next day. Rolls that tend to make crumbs all over the table tend to be the "Sunday" rolls, rewarmed from the day before or rewarmed frozen.  The Baker doesn't bake or deliver on Sunday, a Christian day of rest.  The Q I have in my head is... Does a Jewish Baker take a day off on the Sabbath?  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I love it when the dough behaves.  It's 10am and the kaisers have been shaped and they are resting upside down now.  The dough hydrated nicely and I kneaded in the salt.  Then it doubled and shaped like it should.  Yesterday was soooo humbling.  I  think with low hydration doughs, it pays to add salt later otherwise it becomes a battle to hydrate the flour/yeast decently.   

10:30  (half hour later)

flipped the rolls over and dabbed with whole milk.

I think an American Cooking Encyclopaedia of my Mom's (weapon thick and yellow cover, 1930?)  listed a similar roll as "water rolls."   

Edit:  Look what I found...  http://www.fenderforum.com/viewrecipe.php?recipe_id=226

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

those two rolls in the middle got moved to another tray to bake.  A wet spatula made the transfer easy.  I put them back on the tray for comparisons.  (Adri, stop laughing at my folds!  I still haven't made my first 1000 yet.)

at 10:50 am the rolls went into a 450°F oven with a boiling steam pan on the bottom of the oven.  After 8 minutes, I removed the steam pan and rotated the pans releasing all the steam in the oven.  4 minutes later I reduced the oven to 430°F and finished the bake.  At 11:12 removed rolls from the oven (bake time 22 min.)   

Rolls are cooling upside down on a hot rack. (had to use the hot oven shelf, no extra racks)  

 

andychrist's picture
andychrist

do look scrumptious, Mini! Have to learn to shape that way, hope it doesn't take me one thousand tries. Though wouldn't mind eating my mistakes, if they taste anything like yours!

Thanks so much for all the helpful details. :)