The Fresh Loaf

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Easy to over mix with a Bosch?

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samf526's picture
samf526

Easy to over mix with a Bosch?

Hi all,  

I'm still getting to know my Bosch and was wondering if anyone else with a Bosch could weigh in on mixing time:

Today I mixed a 67% hydration sourdough (about 5-6 pounds of dough, KA patent flour, 5% rye). Moving down my hydration from 73%--which my Bosch was not kneading well---I was hoping I could get a moderate level of gluten development and then reduce my S&Fs from 5 to 2. After a 20 minute autolyse, I mixed the dough for 2 minutes on speed 1 to incorporate salt and stiff levain, and then for 4 minutes on speed 3.  At this point the dough was already getting sticky and torn, but as an experiment I decided to mix for another 2 minutes to see if I was misinterpreting the dough.

As a side note: I've noticed this behavior before, the dough starts to get torn up and sticky after only a few minutes, and that has driven me to scale back my mixing times.  But with only moderate success in scaling back my mixing times (to 1-2 minutes after an autolyse), I thought that I may as well experiment by lengthening my mix this time in order to see if I was simply undermixing in the past.

Anyway, so after two more minutes on speed 3  (6 minutes total) I felt I could safely conclude that I was over mixing my dough.  It was even stickier and felt almost as wet and loose as a 75% hydration dough  (this one was 67%). 

Has anyone else had a problems with over mixing with their Bosch?  I've read some say that 6-10 minutes is the amount of time it takes for them to get good development.  I was surprised that I could over mix with 6 minutes (granted with an autolyse preceding it).   I am going to experiment further by mixing without an autolyse, but I was hoping some other Bosch owners could give me a sense of how much mixing they typically knead for their breads with and without autolyses.

Thanks!

Steven

andychrist's picture
andychrist

I've no hands-on experience with a Bosch myself, Steven, but can tell you that speeds 3 and 4 are strictly for the beaters and whisk. You should not go over 2 with the dough hook.

Which Bosch do you have?

samf526's picture
samf526

Bosch Universal.  I chose speed 3 based on Suas' recommendations that "speed 2" should be about 200 revolutions per minute (apparently this is the case for both Hobarts and spiral mixers).  On a Bosch, speed 2 is about  156 revolutions per minute  (estimated with no dough in it), and speed 3 is 198 revolutions per minute.  So I went with speed 3.

andychrist's picture
andychrist

 

Ah I see. The kneading attachment on the Bosch Universal is quite different from either the J or spiral hook of an overhead mixer. Instructions for Bosch specifically call for speeds 1-2 when kneading dough. (Same on the discontinued Braun mixers, and contemporary KAs, I believe.) The new Bosch Universal Plus and its precursors have some kind of electronically controlled "automatic transmission" which regulate torque/rpm at each speed.

Have posted this before but in case you missed it:





winstonsmith's picture
winstonsmith

I don't think this man in the video knows the first thing about bread. I use a Universal Plus and am happy with it but it isn't perfect (small batches mainly) but I would never tell anyone to let any machine dictate a formula. "Never measure"? I don't think so. 

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Whatever, he certainly must know about the Bosch. And all the instructional videos basically concur on this point: add just as much flour as necessary for the dough to form a ball and pull away from the sides of the bowl. Good rule of thumb for idiots like myself who have no desire to attempt artisinal loaves, but who would be happy with a nice whole grain pan loaf. Now, even I know that for bagels or pizza I'd have to incorporate more flour than demonstrated there, but still I do follow the basic concept (with my Braun and Presto, don't own a Bosch) and adjust by feel until I get the desired consistency. 

What the video does not really cover, is how long to continue mixing after the dough has come together — guy just says that's when to stop adding flour. So perhaps not the greatest help to the OP. Kinda reminds me of the old chestnut about the bus passanger who asks the guy next to him how he'll know when the bus reaches his destination: "Oh, I get off at the stop after that, so just keep your eyes on me and get off one stop before I do!"

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I've used a Bosch at least weekly for several months now.  I typically make four loaves at a time but vary from two to six loaves.  I have seen the videos and I have changed how I use the mixer.  Previously I used the KitchenAid and followed the recipe exactly.  Now I am back to a variable amount of flour.  I now typically add either the dry ingredients up to about 60 percent of the flour and then the water or I just put the water in first.  I mix this up and then add the remaining flour.  Kneading times also seem to be longer on the Bosch.  I mainly knead on speed two but occasionally go to speed three.  I've not had a problem.  On recipes that I have made with both the KA and the Bosch, the Bosch uses less flour.  I have had to bump the liquid from 65% to about 68% or higher to incorporate all of the flour.  The dough does seem a bit stickier but easily manageable and much lighter.  In kneading over 5 lbs of dough, the Bosch had no problems.  BTW, I stripped a gear in the KA 6 qt while making bread.

samf526's picture
samf526

yeah, i was thinking the same thing.

One subtle thing he did say that I think may be true of proper mixing in the Bosch is that the dough should clump together on one side of the mixer.  I've noticed that this happens  a) in my drier doughs, b) particularly when i do not do an autolyse.  After an autolyse, the dough is particularly prone wrapping itself around the center pole and never clumping into a ball.  I find that when this happens, the dough tears more.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

ask chris319 for the stainless bowl with no center post that he said he was taking to the dump.He will be rid of it and you will be super happy...works wonderfully with up to 14 lbs of dough..but .not 12 ounces

samf526's picture
samf526

Thanks fotomat -- I will.  Do you have the stainless steal bowl?  Do you find it produces a significantly better mix than the normal bowl?

I'm slightly baffled because so many TFLers have great experiences with the Bosch (and I'm assuming the plastic bowl), and many consistently say that others'  problems are usually operator error.  I can't really see what I'm doing wrong though….

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

sounds like it may be as simple as that to avoid over mixing. Hopefully, anyway. 

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

loaves with plastic bowl with results similar to yours and thought there has to be a better way. Research here and other places brought me to stainless and 100's of loaves later still very happy.My usual load is about 4-6 lbs and run on speed 2 for the most part with the momentary switch used in the beginning to blend, autolyse then 1 for a minute and 2 the remainder.Good luck