The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Bread Machine Question

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chris319's picture
chris319

Bread Machine Question

On a typical bread machine, does the heating element come on to warm the dough during the knead/dough cycle?

I'm looking for a machine where the heating element stays off during kneading as I will only be using it as a dough kneader.

I had a Zojirushi Virtuoso and it was sent back because of this (it warmed the dough during kneading).

Thank you.

mini_maggie's picture
mini_maggie

It will depend on the machine.  Higher end models like the Zo will sense if the ingredients are cold and need a little warming for kneading - it shouldn't raise the temp more than a nice rising temp, so I don't really see why it's a problem.  Just like a little proofing box.  I'm sure there are basic models out there without it. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Possibly an unhelpful comment, but perhaps learn to knead by hand rather than trying to seek out a machine to do it for you... In my opinion no machine can match the versatility and effectiveness of hands-on manipulation..

The best mixers out there are twin arm mixers, but they are commercial only and not domestic with exception of the new miss baker (Italian retail only)

chris319's picture
chris319

Higher end models like the Zo will sense if the ingredients are cold and need a little warming for kneading - it shouldn't raise the temp more than a nice rising temp

There is no temperature sensor in the Zo. It's just a metal pan with paddles and a fitting to engage the drive mechanism.

With sourdough you want pretty fine control of the proofing temperature. The Zo was changing the dough hydration and the dough was starting to dry out. It felt warmer than the proofing temperature I normally use. All I want the machine to do is combine the ingredients and knead them.

mini_maggie's picture
mini_maggie

It's how it controls bake temp as well as ingredient preheat.  I know this is not the Virtuoso manual but p.3 diagram shows where it is and there is a similar structure, although not labelled on the Virtuoso.

http://www.zojirushi.com/servicesupport/manuals/manual_pdf/bbcc_q15.pdf

There have been reports of Zo's with defective electronic controls, so maybe you got one? 

ccsdg's picture
ccsdg

This may be a little off topic but may I ask why with sourdough you need particularly fine control over temperature? As in it can't be even a couple degrees higher for the half hour or so that kneading takes. I suppose your alternative kneading option is with your hands, do you find it important to have the same level of fine control over your hand and room temperatures? Doesn't it take many more hours to ferment/proof sourdough than it takes to knead it up to that point?

Unless you were talking significantly warmer, as in you thought the cultures might be dying.

New to sourdough myself and have never thought much about temperature - I'm sure I should.

chris319's picture
chris319

learn to knead by hand rather than trying to seek out a machine to do it for you... In my opinion no machine can match the versatility and effectiveness of hands-on manipulation..

Thanks, mwilson. I do know how to knead by hand and it's one reason I'm trying to automate the process. I don't have arthritis in my upper extremities but some people do and hand kneading is not an option for them. If they can put a man on the moon ...

The Zo did a great job of kneading and made a great dough ball with small batches, but it was making the dough much warmer than it should have been, not what you want with sourdough.

I have a Hobart-era KitchenAid with a spiral dough hook and it does a so-so job of kneading but a lot of scraping dough off the hook is required. You get about 10 seconds of kneading time before the hook has to be scraped off again. I see the Miss Baker mixer. It doesn't look cheap.

Here is a diving arm mixer in action. I'm thinking it's more expensive than even a DLX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txWm9m325Js

 

andychrist's picture
andychrist

"Here is a diving arm mixer in action, but I'm thinking it's more expensive than even a DLX."

And be the worst machine of all for small batches, Chris ;-)

 

 

 

chris319's picture
chris319

In this case "small batch" is anything less than 50 lbs. of flour.

chris319's picture
chris319

No temperature sensor is depicted in the Virtuoso manual, page 5:

http://www.zojirushi.com/servicesupport/manuals/manual_pdf/bb_pac20.pdf

mini_maggie's picture
mini_maggie

but the hole that represents it is there. 

chris319's picture
chris319

In sourdough baking it's nice to have fine control over the proofing temperature because temperature affects the reproduction rates of the microorganisms in the leaven.

I would rather use a mixer that doesn't heat the dough. Everybody says the Ankarsrum mixer is the greatest but at $800 it's a bit high (it was $700 last year).

One option would be to disable the heating element in a bread machine as I won't be using it to bake. In the Zo Virtuoso this was not a straightforward proposition. Perhaps one of the smaller machines would be more accessible. For "artisan" bread where you want a crisp crust you have to remove the bread from the loaf pan of a machine to bake in an oven.

Consider a commercial bakery where they turn out hundreds of loaves per day. It would be too labor intensive to have workers kneading dough by hand or to go around scraping down dough hooks. The latter is out of the question:

http://nypost.com/2011/01/25/brooklyn-worker-killed-in-tortilla-mixer-horror/

Antilope's picture
Antilope

;-)

Dramatic Japanese rice cake pounding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T44R78e2Dms

chris319's picture
chris319

You could always get a wooden mallet and a wooden bowl

If they're made by Ankarsrum they're going to want $800 for them :)

ericreed's picture
ericreed

Any mechanical action is going to heat the dough through friction. Usually bakers compensate by changing the temperature of the water they add to the dough to achieve their desired dough temperature (DDT).

To figure out how to arrive at your DDT multiply it by the number of things contributing to the temp, 3 for straight dough, or 4 for dough with preferments/levain. If doing sourdough it's 1) the temp of sourdough culture; 2) the temp of the flour; 3) the temp of the water; 4) the air temp. Take that number, subtract the known temperatures, ie, everything but the water which you're using to control the temp, and include the friction heat of your mixer.

To find the friction of your mixer, take some dough, measure the temp, mix on 2nd speed for 1 min. (Usually you never mix on higher than 2nd speed.) Measure the temp, take the difference and multiply by the number of minutes you need to mix the dough. Usually going to be 4 or 5 minutes for a normal home stand mixer. So if my dough raised 2 degrees in a minute, and I needed to mix on 2 for 4 minutes to get the dough development I want, my friction factor would be 8 F. (This method is from Advanced Bread and Pastry by Suas, which says friction is usually around 8 F. Hamelman says the friction is usually around 26 F. I'm not sure how to account for this large difference, but my dough certainly never raises 26 F during mixing.)

So to get DDT of 75 F, for example, in a sourdough bread.
75 X 4 = 300

300 less room temp, let's call it 70 F = 230.

230 less flour temp, probably the same as room, call it 70 = 160.

160 less my sourdough culture, call it 70 again if out at room temp = 90.

90 less my friction factor of 8 F = 82.

So to get my dough temp of 75 F, I need 82 degree water.

As far as mix times, most artisan breads utilize a method called "improved mix". Basically, mixing on low speed until the dough comes together, then finishing on 2nd speed until about half the full gluten development. For my Kitchenaide mixer, this usually comes to 3 minutes on low and 5 minutes on 2nd. Different mixers will vary. The rest of the gluten develops during fermentation, assisted by a couple of stretch and folds.

lizzy0523's picture
lizzy0523

The machine is running a motor in order to knead, so it throws off some heat. Some machines are better than others at insulating the dough from that heat, but I doubt any is perfect. I would wager that that accounts for a lot of the differences in friction factor from one baker to another as well. You can't have a motorized kneader without it heating the dough to some degree.

I agree, the best approach is to just figure out what that degree is for you and use colder ingredients. 

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

Hammelman does not suggest the usual friction to be 26F, but uses that number as a plug to show how the formula works [Why he chooses such a big plug is probably because he is dealing with industrial machines and industrial amounts of dough.]

I suppose all of this works.  I've never used this formula at home, figuring I can mix the dough using what I believe to be an appropriate temperature -- warmer in a cool room, cooler in a warm room, take its temperature and then either put it in a warm oven or leave it on the counter as needed.

ericreed's picture
ericreed

But to quote pg 447, "...the friction factor for most mixers is in the range of 24 to 28 F, quite a substantial temperature increase".

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

I missed that!

 So the comment above says: "mix on 2nd speed for 1 min" to measure the friction factor, but Hammelman is saying that 24-28 degrees for most mixers follows from mixing doughs for 3 minutes on first speed and 3 or 4 minutes on second speed.

I have never used a mixer to know whether that is a reasonable assumption to make or not. But it may explain the difference between the authors.  In any case, using a thermometer should solve the problem for people who want to do this method.  Obviously it is not all that precise as air temperature and flour temperature and levain temperature can't possibly be equally weighted when measuring the temperature of the dough.  A cold levain in smaller proportions to the final dough will have less impact on dough temperature than one in larger proportions. At least, that is what common sense tells me.

 

gerhard's picture
gerhard

I imagine that a spiral mixer has more friction than a Hobart style so if he made measurements using the mixer available to him it might be quite different for what we experience.

Gerhard

chris319's picture
chris319

all mixers heat the dough...

No mixer I'm aware of has a heating element that comes on while mixing. Do you know of one?

The machine is running a motor in order to knead, so it throws off some heat.

On a KitchenAid mixer the case acts as a heat sink for the heat from the motor. This heat never gets close to the dough. The metal bowl also acts as a heat sink for the dough itself.

Rather than go to such elaborate lengths to find the DDT, I use a mixer which doesn't heat the dough to any significant degree. The dough is well below proofing temperature when it's finished being kneaded. I then put it in a proofing oven with a temperature sensor poked into the dough and connected to a thermostat. This setup works just great.

chris319's picture
chris319

Someone suggested elsewhere that this heating during kneading is to preheat the liquid ingredients which are placed in the bread pan first. It may also be a way of preheating the bread pan for subsequent rise and bake cycles. It seems to be a trait common to many different bread machines.

mini_maggie's picture
mini_maggie

for busy people using bread machines to be able to use ingredients straight from the fridge instead of having to plan ahead and get ingredients out to rise to room temp first.  If turning it off on the Zo didn't work, the unit may have been defective.  Electronics and sensors are fussy. I'm sure there must be a basic bread machine model out there somewhere without a preheat feature, but whether it will knead as well as the two-paddle Zo is another matter.  Good luck!

 

 

chris319's picture
chris319

the friction factor for most mixers is in the range of 24 to 28 F, quite a substantial temperature increase

That may be the case when you're mixing a 50-pound sack of flour but it seems awfully high when mixing a few cups of flour. If my room temperature is 75 F, it means the dough would be getting up to 100 F and I KNOW that isn't the case. When I poke the temperature sensor into my dough after mixing, it is well below my proofing temperature of 26 C or 79 F.

chris319's picture
chris319

I'm sure there must be a basic bread machine model out there somewhere without a preheat feature

There doesn't seem to be. I've posted maybe a half dozen inquiries of bread machine users on amazon.com and it appears to be a common trait among all bread machines.. Some machines don't stop at the end of kneading but go right into a "rise" or proofing cycle. This may turn the heating element on at a reduced temperature for proofing.

The one option I can see is to open a machine and go after the heating element wires with a pair of wire cutters. Seriously. If I'm not using it to bake and don't want any heat during kneading ...

David Esq.'s picture
David Esq.

But, if you ask the folks at Zojirushi America Corp., they will tell you that the heating element does not come on during the knead cycle.

And, of course, the machine lets you turn off the pre-heat feature. 

I will leave the thread with that thought because I am apparently not contributing anything.  But if anybody actually wants a mixer that allows them to turn off the pre-heating feature, at least Zo's owner's manual says you can do it and their customer service confirms the heating element does not come on during kneading.

Does that mean the bread does not warm up? Nope.  But that does not appear to be what is being discussed.