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Bosch MUM professional/home

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andychrist's picture
andychrist

Bosch MUM professional/home

 

 

Just chanced upon this video on YouTube of the Bosch MUM 8 professional 1400 Watt in action.




Am quite impressed with its power, but in the video it seemed the dough never quite formed a ball. Don't understand German; perhaps the point here was to create an artisan style, high-hydration dough? Seemed rather a long time to work it, for a Bosch, especially at that high speed.

Anybody here familiar with that machine, or have the gist of what the narrator was demonstrating?

Thanks.

Edit: See where the latest offering is 1600 Watt on the Professional, although of course it has never been available in NA.

Here's more we can't get in the States, AFAIK:

 







 

 

 

MarkS's picture
MarkS

That is definitely a high hydration dough. I find it odd that they chose that as an example. The higher the hydration, the less strain there is on the motor. :/

I have a 1000 watt Cuisinart stand mixer with a 7 qt. bowl that cannot handle much more dough of the same hydration as I could with my 350 watt 4 qt KitchenAid. A lot of what the mixer can handle depends greatly on the quality of the gearbox.

It should be noted for comparison that a 20 qt Hobart mixer only has a 1/2 HP (372.85 watt) motor.

chris319's picture
chris319

I'm not sure this is available in the states. No listings from amazon.com or pleasanthill. The listings on ebay say it's 220V.

andychrist's picture
andychrist

available in the USA, though I did find a reference to it in a cached page from PHG where they said that Bosch ultimately decided not to release it here, in favor of "the stronger Universal Plus." Say WHAT?! The only Bosch products available in NA are their bottom of the line, and don't come with all the accessories they include for distribution around the rest of the world. Probably could not stand the markup from the middlemen here.  BTW I take it your new old Bosch Universal arrived? How is it?

MarkS, yeah that sure is one heck of a high hydration dough. But I think the guy was just demonstrating how to make that kind of bread using a mixer, and wasn't really trying to show off the Bosch — doesn't seem to be a representative/distributor. Anyway, found it interesting because I just got a replacement Braun K 3210, and wonder whether it could pull off the same kind of trick as that Bosch. With its European style dough kneader, the Braun seems to need to get the mass into a ball in order to work it. Don't know if it would ever fully develop a such a moist dough the way the Bosch did with the speedy planetary action of its J hook. Guess that will be my next experiment with the K 3210!

chris319's picture
chris319

My Bosch UM3 was shipped via USPS second-day delivery. There must have been rain or snow or gloom of night because that was three days ago and it only arrived at the local post office today, if their tracking information is correct. It's not that long a trek from Phoenix, AZ to Los Angeles, CA so "second-day" was but an approximation in this case. Hopefully it will arrive today.

(Some time later): It arrived in good condition. I have yet to put it through its paces. I will do that anon.

I have learned that I don't like firm sourdough starter. Mine turned into a gooey, overproofed mess. I've had much better luck with liquid starter.

Is it just me or does the MUM 8 look not much more impressive than a Bosch Compact?

chris319's picture
chris319

The Bosch UM3 is a dud for kneading dough, even with the fancy stainless-steel contraption. It has the "riding the dough hook" problem even worse than the KitchenAid.

andychrist's picture
andychrist

That's weird Chris, didn't that video show the dough being worked successfully? How did you build it up, adding all the ingredients at once or by gradually incorporating the flour into the liquid part? Though that when the dough rides up, that signals it is fully developed? 




This guy says never to measure the flour, let the dough tell you when it's ready, or something like that. Is that a similar model Bosch to yours? 

 

chris319's picture
chris319

Mine has the stainless-steel bowl with the hook that attaches at the bottom.

It combines the ingredients OK and the dough hydration is fine. Once the ingredients are combined, the dough collects on one prong of the fancy dough hook and goes for a ride without being stretched or "worked". It ultimately fails the window-pane test.

Note that we never see a finished dough ball in that video.

Antilope's picture
Antilope

similar to a taffy pulling machine. Make it smaller, turn the prongs 90 degrees and stick them in a bowl of dough.

Salt Water Taffy Pulling Machine on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tlHDsquVM

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Chris, in the video you posted of the vintage SS Universal, we see at the "End of Kneading" a finished dough ball riding the hook. Though in the description he says that he took off the lid for the video but had to put it back on for the kneading process or his challah would have been on the floor. So I wonder what we missed from the shoot. Does your dough behave the same way as his, from what is shown in that video? Also, which speed do you use for the final knead, and have you experimented with larger batches? Am guessing it would be less likely for a big dough ball to remain stuck on one prong — its wider diameter would keep it pressed against the wall of the bowl, forcing it to spin and break away from the hook, especially if worked at the higher speed. Wonder also though if dough mixed in any Bosch ever window panes, think I've only seen that demonstrated on a KA?, not sure now.

Anyway, you're bound to figure out the sweet spot for your Universal sooner or later, Chris.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Chris, sorry to hear things are not going well.  I have never seen the SS bowl in person, but read it was the cat's meow.  With the plastic bowl on my UM-3 you had to be careful about how you load the ingredients,  if it is too dry on the outside of the dough it would just slide around without being kneaded.  When that happened I would dribble a few drops of water in the bowl and the dough would start to catch and begin kneading.    This video is pretty good - though I usually used a lot less dough, so it was easier to see it being stretched  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fod_ClAGhk

 

This video shows what you are talking about, it goes for a ride, but every now and again, it sticks and gets kneaded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kC-xmw9Jqj8

andychrist's picture
andychrist

 

"While it does look like it's just spinning it around it is a little more difficult to see that it is also stretching and folding it into itself."

Think that action might be similar to what my Braun K3210 does, even though its European dough hook and center column differ radically from the bottom up design of that SS Bosch Universal. If you look at the base of the prong on which the dough is riding, you will notice it "swanning," or forming a neck that keeps twisting around, as the ball turns in on itself. Difference is on the Braun, the swan radiates from the top of the spindle, and gets pressed against the lid, rather than the base of the bowl as with the Bosch. 




 

chris319's picture
chris319

It's not the bee's knees. It's Hitler's revenge.

What that video doesn't show you is that the clump of dough on the hook is a shaggy, un-kneaded blob that fails the window-pane test.

I am getting the small bowl and miniature dough hook for it, so I'm not giving up on it yet.

The stainless-steel bowl can go right in the dumpster. I wouldn't give it to charity or sell it because it needs to turn into land fill.

They can put a man on the moon ...

andychrist's picture
andychrist

How long did you give it after it formed the spinning ball?

Maybe it just needs more time?

chris319's picture
chris319

Not to be curt, but I could let it spin all afternoon and if it's not being kneaded, i.e. stretched and compressed, but is merely going for a free ride around and around on the hook, there's no way the gluten's going to be developed.

andychrist's picture
andychrist

But is the dough ball only spinning around the perimeter of the bowl, or also on its own axis? Might be hard to see if its going fast, but if it generates a neck at the bottom that bends in toward the bowl's center, then it is indeed turning in on itself and being stretched. Again, it might be only a matter of time before it develops enough to pane. Or as Barry mentioned, spraying some more water onto the dough might help it adhere to the sides of the bowl and get worked by the other two arms of the hook. I frequently have that very same problem of the dough riding the hook with my Presto hand crank, and have found that wetting the ball gets it to stick back to aluminum vessel and resume being worked. (Though at first the extra water seems only to exacerbate the situation, lubing the contact area so that ball just slides around more easily. Takes a minute or so before it's absorbed enough to give good tack.)

Yes Chris, we all know that small batches are not the Universal's forte! But no doubt you will eventually get it to work, either by playing around with the mix or with that smaller bowl and paddle.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Chris,  I wouldn't throw it away, some people love it http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27653.msg283979#msg283979.  It may be that the volume and hydration you are using isn't ideal for that combination of SS and bottom hooks.  

chris319's picture
chris319

I'm already at 65% hydration with 210 g of flour.

I'm going to try 80% hydration and see if it helps.

chris319's picture
chris319

80% hydration turned into a gooey mess but it did change the characteristics of the dough and the mixing action. Ultimately there was an un-kneaded clump of gooey dough which did not form a properly-kneaded dough ball.

70% hydration. Same as 65% hydration. Tried dribbling in water 1/2 tsp at a time. Some change to dough characteristics. Again, never got a ball of properly-kneaded dough.

That's the end of my patience with this thing. The bowl and dough hook are going into the garbage. We'll see how the mini-bowl and hook work out.

http://www.fykitchen.com/Details.cfm?ProdID=1690

andychrist's picture
andychrist

about throwing the SS bowl and hook into the garbage, but as a reminder, it could fetch $99.99 on eBay. So you'd still come out even or maybe a liitle ahead, trading up to that set from FYK.

chris319's picture
chris319

I will wait and see how the mini bowl and hook work out. If they work well, you're right, the bowl might fetch a few dollars on ebay and I would sell only the bowl. If they don't work well, I'd get rid of the whole shootin' match -- base unit, bowl, blender jar, everything. Then I'd have to re-wrap all of it for shipping. Shipping alone for the thing from Arizona to CA was $32.

I don't feel good about foisting Hitler's revenge on another poor, unsuspecting soul, but whatever.

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Why sell only the bowl and not the hook that works with it, Chris? Because AFAIK, any Universal bowl you might want to purchase to replace it would come with its own hook, they don't seem to be sold by themselves.

Hiltler's Revenge might be fine for large batches; anyway am guessing the problem you experienced had more to do with the hook.

Will be interesting to see how the small bowl and paddle from FYK work out.

chris319's picture
chris319

Bowl and hook. Hitler's revenge encompasses both, as well as the plastic spacer and the plastic thing that attaches the bowl to the base and the nut, all of those component parts. Oh, and the metal splash ring.

Why would I sell only the bowl and keep the dough hook that doesn't fit anything else???

andychrist's picture
andychrist
chris319's picture
chris319

Pity the poor soul who bought it. No joking.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Chris, it occurs to me that the positive reviews I saw on the SS bowl were on a pizzamaking site. Most people making pizza go for pretty long ferments - often 1 to 3 days, so they don't want window pane from their mixer, they get the gluten development from time.  What it shined at was mixing small amounts, which would just get wrapped around the central column of the regular bowl in the UM3.  

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Barry, would that same problem of the dough wrapping around the central column still occur with the European style dough kneader attachment, such as what originally came with your Concept? The Braun K3210 employs an almost identical piece (must have been cross-licensed), and I don't recall ever having experienced the wrap-around problem with it, least of all with small batches. So, thinking the most likely culprit would be the broad arm of the standard/American Bosch hook? Understand it's been a while since you've used that machine but what differences did you find between the two kneading attachments — taking it you had/have both? Thanks!

andychrist's picture
andychrist

Found your review again of all those Bosches.

Will repost link below for Chris.

Thanks again for the juicy details, very helpful!

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

with the stainless bowl and bottom mounted dough hook for years with great success.I would agree if the complaint was regarding the top mount dough hook but I have made 100's of great loves with the setup without a problem.My hydration varies from 55 to 80 and while probably better suited with the lower it works perfectly for me. Post your recipe and a point by point of what you are doing....210g at 65% hydration?? seems awfully small?

chris319's picture
chris319

I'm beginning to wonder if some people know what properties properly-kneaded dough has, i.e. it forms a ball with a smooth outer surface and passes the window-pane test. Some may see a wad of dough in the mixer and think, "oh, kneaded dough" when it's shaggy on the outside and fails window pane. If you're making pizza crust and plan to twirl the dough in the air, if the gluten isn't developed it's going to fall apart when you try to twirl it, don't you think? If they're using an UM3 with a European hook, the only way to get full knead is by hand.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

to post your recipe? Maybe we could go over it point by point and find a solution. You came to the conclusion that the bosch was crap in less than 24 hours of receiving it in the mail? Just trying to make your purchase work for you.

andychrist's picture
andychrist

 

Here is Barry's review of the Bosch's various dough hooks/kneader:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25855.0

chris319's picture
chris319

Here are the recipes used in the Bosch UM3:

TEST DOUGH 65%

1. Flour 210 g

2. Water 0.65 * 210 (136.5 g)

TEST DOUGH 70%

Flour 210 g

Water 0.7 * 210 (147 g)

TEST DOUGH 80%

Flour 210 g

Water 0.8 * 210 (168 g)

These three recipes can all be made and tested in less than 24 hours.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

you get a real recipe that uses salt and yeast and more than 12 oz combined of flour and water. You really can't expect a mixing machine of any sort to do well with a meager amount like that. My pizza dough is almost twice that and I mix it by hand, then stretch and fold. It would take me longer to clean up than its worth. If you are going to test it test it and get a recipe for a 2 lb loaf and have at it. But I really believe if you increase the components you will have more success.

chris319's picture
chris319

Why don'tyou get a real recipe that uses salt and yeast

Please explain how the addition of salt and yeast affects the mechanics of dough kneading.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

I was under the assumption that you were eventually going to make bread and not matzoh or playdoh. Even playdoh has salt. Salt tightens the gluten making it less sticky and easier to handle Let me know how a real bread recipe works out..as I said I have made hundreds of loaves in mine as have a good many people on this site.Your test really only proves that a Bosch doesn't work well if you were interested in making an 11 oz loaf or 3 rolls that would not rise at all.

chris319's picture
chris319

After testing several hydrations, I'm at a loss to see how adding salt changes the mechanics of the dough hook.

Riding and climbing the dough hook is a well-known phenomenon with KitchenAids, even with salt in the dough.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

you complained about the Kitchenaid as well. A mixer that regular people have been making bread with since 1937 with the only real complaint being durability...you find fault with. The Bosch which has worldwide fans for its ability to work large volumes of dough into wonderful bread you find fault with in your 346 gram experiment. Make bread not noise!

chris319's picture
chris319

OK, I tried yet another test batch, this time adding salt amounting to 2% of the flour weight. The texture of the dough changed (it was less sticky) but the end result was the same: a clump of dough on the white spoke of the hook which wasn't being worked and failed the window-pane test.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

provide your complete bread recipe with times,temperatures and weights of yeast,salt flour and water. Thanks

chris319's picture
chris319

Thats right you complained about the Kitchenaid as well.

Lots of people have complained about it. Why do you think KA introduced the spiral dough hook? Here is a google search on that very subject.

https://www.google.com/search?q=celsius+to+fahrenheit&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#channel=sb&q=k...

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I really think the modern bowls should have some texture or speed bumps. That suggestion is from a thread where we talked about and demo'd an antique handcrank bread mixer. There were 3-4 small lines/updents/speed bumps in the bottom of the dough bucket that would be perpendicular to the travel of the dough. They acted as bumps that caused the dough to "trip" over it and get caught long enough that the hook pulled on the dough and stretched it before pulling it to the next speed bump. It also helped if there was an optimal amount of flour used for the size of the bucket (about 8 -9 cups minimum for that particular bucket). It produced a beautifully textured loaf when it had the correct amount of dough.

chris319's picture
chris319

Well, clazar, the bottom of this bowl I've nicknamed "Hitler's revenge" is flat, smooth and circular. Sound familiar? Why it sounds just like the EZ-Doh, only it's made of stainless steel, not polyethylene. Apparently older versions of the Universal Bread Maker did not have speed bumps either and they were added in later units.

I would have thought Bosch engineers would have had this figured out but apparently not.

Newton's third law still reigns supreme.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

provide your complete bread recipe with times,temperatures and weights of yeast,salt flour and water. I will make it in my Bosch and report back. Thanks

chris319's picture
chris319

AP flour 210 g

Water 136.5 g (65% hydration)

Salt 1/2 tsp

Liquid sourdough starter 1/3 C -- the starter will add some moisture. It is about the consistency of a milkshake, a very thick batter. I haven't tried it with starter in the UM3. You could start at 60% hydration (126 g water), add the starter, then add a few more grams of water if necessary.

That's the whole recipe.

If it wouldn't be inconvenient would you mind taking a photo of the window pane but only if the dough passes the window-pane test? If it doesn't pass the window-pane test I'll take your word for it.

Thanks!

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

complete. I am assuming you have made bread successfully with this so....What is the hydration of the starter...weight of starter added...mix times...rise times 1st and second..bake time and temp. Internal temp.Thanks

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Chris,  As I said, sorry to hear that it isn't working out for you.  I don't think it ever occured to me the difference in gluten requirement at the kneading stage between bread and pizza until I read your posts.  When I started going full bore into bread and pizza a few years ago, I thought machine kneading was required to develop gluten to a window pane.  While kneading can do that, you can also get gluten development without kneading with a machine -  from as little as  No Knead Bread ( which usually has a long fermentation times) to the stretch and fold method.  Have you read Hammelman bread -  he has a recipe for baguette de tradition that involves 3 sets of Stretch and folds in 20 minute intervals, and at the end, the dough looks like it has been thoroughly kneaded by a machine.   Again, most of the pizza fans are using an overnight ferment, if not 2 or 3 days, so they get plenty of gluten development after they finish.  Here is a one of my favorite recipes -   he says Dough should be somewhere between cottage cheese-y and smooth. (Window paning is too far).     he gets the rest of the gluten development by 2 days of bulk fermentation.

 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13827.msg138896#msg13889s  .

 

 The reason I wanted to point this out is that most reviews of the small mixing bowl and the SS bowl with the hooks at the bottom are from people making pizza, and it may not cross over entirely to a situation where you want a window pane at the kneading stage.

Here is a review of the small bowl attachment, again it is for pizza, so not sure you will get window paning.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23760.msg245250#msg245250

 

BTW, for anyone who is reading this and considering the UM3 ( Bosch Universal - not the Universal Plus) I used the UM3 for while, and within certain limits it did a great job, though as many have found with small amounts of dough ( 250 grams of flour would count as small ) it had some issues, and also with very high hydration ( Jason's Ciabatta ) was not a strong point.   The Concept was an advance, IMHO, because the European dough hooks would limit the problem with small doughs wrapping around the center column and could handle high hydration much better, though not trouble free.  With Jason's recipe ( using 100 % whole wheat ) the Concept would develop plenty of gluten, but it got so developed it would climb under the European hooks and ride up on the inside of the hook assembly if you didn't watch it carefully.  As Andy has pointed out I did a pretty controlled test of the UM3,  Compact, and the Concept of small dough.  I should repeat it for the DLX -  Magic Mill Assistent, but haven't got around to it yet.  

 

 

 

 

 

chris319's picture
chris319

Thanks, Barry, for the illuminating post. I'll have a look at those links anon. I didn't know the requirements for pizza were different from those for bread.

chris319's picture
chris319

That is not really complete. I am assuming you have made bread successfully with this so....What is the hydration of the starter...weight of starter added...mix times...rise times 1st and second..bake time and temp. Internal temp.Thanks

Bake time and temp have nothing to do with how well a mixer functions.

Never mind. I'll resolve my mixer issues without you. Thank you.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

you will not. Peace